Upzoned

Hartman, Colorado, reached a point where it could no longer function as a town. Its water system was unsafe, every member of the town board had resigned, and no one remained with the authority to hold an election or sign the agreements needed to fix the water. Norm Van Eeden Petersman is joined by Joshua Hopkins, mayor of Chugwater, Wyoming, and Strong Towns executive director John Reuter to look past the political infighting and ask what happened before the final collapse. The question facing places like Hartman and Chugwater is increasingly basic: How much town can a very small community actually afford to maintain?

ADDITIONAL SHOW NOTES

"Colorado declares town abandoned amid water and leadership crisis" by Ramon Antonio Vargas, Theguardian.com (August 2026)

Norm Van Eeden Petersman (LinkedIn)

Joshua Hopkins (LinkedIn, Instagram)

John Reuter (LinkedIn)

Articles mentioned and Downzone:

How a Rodeo Arena Can Strengthen A Rural Community (Bottom-Up Short Episode)

Don’t Give Up on Your Small Town (Article)

Whatever Happened to the Music Teacher? How Government Decides and Why by Donald Savoie (Book) 

Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion by Robert B. Cialdini (Book)

Chugwaterite (Instagram)

Theme Music by Kemet the Phantom.

 

This podcast is made possible by Strong Towns members. Thank you! Join fellow members discussing this episode in The Commons.

What if the easiest way to overcome opposition to new housing was simply to pay people to accept it? A recent article in The Atlantic argues that after state laws, packed public meetings, and economic appeals have failed to overcome local resistance, cash payments might succeed where persuasion has not. Chuck Marohn is joined by John Reuter, executive director of Strong Towns, and Dr. Chloe Groome, treasurer of Strong Towns Chicago, to test that idea against what they’ve seen in real neighborhoods. Their discussion turns to what happens when new neighbors are framed as a burden, and whether cash can do the work that persuasion, trust, and local relationships have failed to do.

"A Perfectly Crude Solution to America’s Housing Shortage" by Rogé Karma, Theatlantic.com (July 2026)

Chuck Marohn (LinkedIn)

John Reuter (LinkedIn)

Dr. Chloe Groome (LinkedIn), Strong Towns Chicago (Site)

Articles Mentioned and Downzone:

The Human Condition by Hannah Arendt (Site)

Farm To Taber (YouTube Channel)

Stolen Revolution: Betrayal and Hope in Modern Iran by Yeganeh Torbati and Bozorgmehr Sharafedin (Site)

Theme Music by Kemet the Phantom.

 

This podcast is made possible by Strong Towns members. Thank you! Join fellow members discussing this episode in The Commons.

What happens when one generation holds much of the country’s housing wealth and has little reason to give it up? Chuck Marohn talks with Strong Towns board chair Andrew Burleson and historic property renovator Richard Rumrill about boomers buying bigger homes, even as younger families wait for those houses to come back onto the market. The generational frustration is easy to understand, but the expected handoff assumes older homeowners will be ready to leave. What happens when the people expected to move have nowhere they want to go, and everyone behind them is still waiting?

ADDITIONAL SHOW NOTES

"Boomers Were Supposed to Downsize. They Are Buying Bigger Homes Instead." by Rachel Louise Ensign, Wsj.com (July 2026)

Chuck Marohn (LinkedIn)

Andrew Burleson (LinkedIn), Free Range City (Substack)

Richard Rumrill (LinkedIn), Strong Towns RVA (Site)

Articles Mentioned and Downzone:

Regime Change: Inside the Imperial Presidency of Donald Trump by Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan (Site)

Kids Over Cars (Substack)

#42 Charles Duff: North Atlantic Cities - The Forgotten Blueprint for the Future Building Culture (Podcast)

The North Atlantic Cities by Charles Duff (Site)

Theme Music by Kemet the Phantom.

 

This podcast is made possible by Strong Towns members. Thank you! Join fellow members discussing this episode in The Commons.

Americans have been told that buying a home is one of the safest ways to secure their future. But when retirement depends on home values continuing to climb, affordability begins to look like a threat. Carlee Alm-LaBar is joined by Daniel Herriges, co-author of Escaping the Housing Trap, and Alli Thurmond-Quinlan, executive director of the Incremental Development Alliance. Together, they push beyond the idea that housing is simply an investment problem. Limited supply, narrow housing choices, transportation, retirement, and municipal finance are all tied into the same system, leaving people with fewer ways to find security at every stage of life.

ADDITIONAL SHOW NOTES

"The Housing Crisis Is Also a Retirement Crisis" by Kyla Scanlon, Nytimes.com (July 2026)

Downzone:

From Strength to Strength, by Arthur C. Brooks (Site)

Construction Physics (Substack)

World Cup 2026 (Site)

Carlee Alm-LaBar (LinkedIn)

Daniel Herriges (LinkedIn)

Alli Thurmond-Quinlan (LinkedIn)

Theme Music by Kemet the Phantom.

 

This podcast is made possible by Strong Towns members. Join fellow members discussing this episode in The Commons.

In 2009, Chicago traded 75 years of parking meter revenue for a $1.2 billion payment that helped fill an immediate budget hole. Norm Van Eeden Petersman is joined by Tony Jordan, executive director of the Parking Reform Network, and Edward Erfurt, chief technical advisor at Strong Towns, to look at what the city actually gave up and why its recent $3.3 billion bid never made it to the finish line. The lease still shapes decisions about removing parking for bus lanes, bike lanes and wider sidewalks, while the revenue keeps flowing to a private operator instead of back into the places generating it. That leaves Chicago with a much harder question than whether the original deal was bad: what would it take to manage the curb again, regain flexibility and use that money to improve the streets themselves?

ADDITIONAL SHOW NOTES

"Mayor’s $3 Billion Parking Meter Offer Was $800 Million More Than The Next Highest Bid, Investor Says" by Mick Dumke, Blockclubchicago.org (June 2026)

Norm Van Eeden Petersman (LinkedIn)

Tony Jordan (Site)

Edward Erfurt (LinkedIn)

Articles mentioned and Downzone:

'Why ‘SimCity’ has no parking lots, and other insights from the lead designer' (Article)

Simulating the Future: a webinar with Stone Librande (Video)

A Wailing Of A Town: An Oral History of Early San Pedro Punk And More 1977-1985 by Craig Ibarra (Book) 

Recoding America: Why Government Is Failing in the Digital Age and How We Can Do Better by Jennifer Pahlka (Book)

Sam Walton: Made In America, by Sam Walton and John Huey (Book)

Microlandia (Site)

Theme Music by Kemet the Phantom.

 

This podcast is made possible by Strong Towns members. Thank you! Join fellow members discussing this episode in The Commons.