Presales Podcast by Presales Collective

In this episode, Jack Cochran and Matthew James continue their conversation with Micah Joel, diving deep into the metrics that matter when building and justifying a demo engineering team. Micah shares practical approaches to measuring the value of demo engineering, from simple time-saving calculations to sophisticated surveys that capture SE satisfaction and retention indicators. The conversation explores how to frame these metrics in terms that senior management cares about, moving beyond technical accomplishments to demonstrate real business impact.
 
Micah emphasizes the importance of thinking "top down" when building a demo engineering organization, focusing on what leadership values most: productivity, cost savings, and revenue growth. He shares real-world examples from his time at Salesforce's Q Branch, including how to measure the value of demo environments, how to identify unexpected patterns in the data (like deals where demo engineers get involved), and how cultivating relationships with SEs creates goodwill that extends beyond the numbers. The discussion also covers how demo engineering impacts go-to-market speed for new products and how to position the team as mission-critical support for field teams rather than just a technical function.
Follow Us
Connect with Jack Cochran: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackcochran/

Connect with Matthew James https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthewyoungjames/ 

Connect with Micah Joel: https://www.linkedin.com/in/micahjoel/

Links and Resources Mentioned
Join Presales Collective Slack: https://www.presalescollective.com/slack

Sol/Con 2026 (Chicago, August 2026): https://www.presalescollective.com/solcon-2026

Presales Collective Podcast: https://www.presalescollective.com/podcast

Key Topics Covered
Establishing baseline metrics for demo engineering through time-saving calculations

Using SE surveys to measure demo environment value and satisfaction

Identifying retention indicators at 3-year and 7-year tenure marks

Reducing technical barriers to hiring SEs through better demo tooling

Thinking "top down" to align metrics with senior management priorities

Measuring go-to-market speed and time-to-revenue for new products

Building goodwill and political capital with SE teams

Branding your demo engineering team with effective metaphors

Course-correcting when metrics don't align with expectations

Positioning demo engineering within the organization structure

Timestamps
00:00 Welcome 
02:55 Measuring time saved with tooling 
09:20 Reducing technical hiring barriers 
13:50 Building the overall business case 
18:30 When metrics don't line up 
21:20 Product-to-Market (P2M) 
27:40 Final thoughts on top-down thinking

In this episode, Jack Cochran and Matthew James sit down with Micah Joel, GTM leader and demo engineering pioneer, to explore what it means to build a dedicated demo engineering function from scratch. Micah shares his journey from theater kid to SE to leading Salesforce's legendary Q Branch, and unpacks why demo engineering might be the most underutilized lever in presales today. They cover the difference between deal-focused and infrastructure-focused demo engineers, how to structure the team, why blended teams fail, and how a mature demo engineering org can swim upstream into product strategy to reduce time-to-revenue. This is part one of two. Part two will focus on measuring and proving the value of a demo engineering team.
Follow Us
Connect with Jack Cochran: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackcochran/

Connect with Matthew James: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthewyoungjames/

Connect with Micah Joel: https://www.linkedin.com/in/micahjoel/ 

Links and Resources Mentioned
Join Presales Collective Slack: https://www.presalescollective.com/slack

SoulCon 2026 (Chicago, August 2026): https://www.presalescollective.com/solcon-2026 

Presales Collective Podcast: https://www.presalescollective.com/podcast

Key Topics Covered
Micah's Background: From Theater to SE to Demo Engineering

What Is Demo Engineering and How Is It Different from Being an SE?

When Does an Organization Need a Demo Engineering Team?

The Two Sides of Demo Engineering: Deal Support vs. Infrastructure/Scale

How to Hire and Structure the Team

Demo Engineering as a Talent Pipeline and Retention Strategy

Swimming Upstream: Demo Engineering's Role in Go-to-Market Strategy

Common Mistakes and How to Avoid Them

Timestamps
00:00 Welcome
02:48 Intro Micah Joel
05:42 Demo engineering definition
08:33 When do you need a DE team?
11:13 Deal side vs. infrastructure/scale side
15:48 Demo engineering as SE retention
23:55 Swimming upstream
27:11 Final advice

The Future of AI in Presales: Beyond Demo Automation
In this episode, Jack Cochran is joined by Nalin Senthamil, Founder and CEO of Storylane, to discuss the evolution of AI in presales beyond simple demo automation. They explore the hidden costs of demos, how the buyer themselves are becoming AI-powered, and the emergence of AI tools for sellers, much like Storylane has developed with RepEx
Thank you to Storylane for sponsoring this episode! Visit Storylane.io to learn more.
Follow Us
Connect with Jack Cochran: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackcochran/

Connect with Nalin Senthamil: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nalinpradeep/ 

Links and Resources Mentioned
Join Presales Collective Slack: https://www.presalescollective.com/slack

RepEx (AI buyer engagement platform): Available at https://www.storylane.io/

Key Topics Covered
Nalin's Journey from Amazon AI Engineer to Demo Automation Founder

The Hidden Cost Per Demo

AI at the Infrastructure Level

RepEx: The Next Generation of Buyer Engagement

The Context Handoff Problem

Presales as Strategic Advisors in 2026

Timestamps
00:00 Welcome
03:15 Nalin's Background: From Amazon AI Engineer to Storylane Founder 
05:54 The Cost Per Demo Problem and Demo Automation Impact 
13:24 What are we leaving behind with AI, and what remains human? 
20:00 RepEx Launch: Beyond Traditional Chatbots 
26:25 The Importance of Context in the Buyer Journey 
28:54 How Presales Teams Can Prepare for AI Integration 
30:15 Final Advice: Building Long-Term AI Capabilities in Presales

In this episode recorded at the Presales Collective Leadership Next Summit in November of 2025, Jack Cochran sits down with Gretchen Fitzgibbons, Senior Manager of Strategic Solutions Consulting at Airtable, to discuss what it means to be a courageous leader in presales. They explore how to make difficult decisions under pressure, navigate organizational politics with integrity, and build the support systems that enable consistent leadership. Gretchen shares powerful stories from her two decades of experience advising Fortune 500 customers and leading presales teams, including standing up for a team member being unfairly assessed and creating win-win solutions in challenging situations.
Follow Us
Connect with Jack Cochran: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackcochran/

Connect with Gretchen Fitzgibbons: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gretchenfitzgibbons/

Links and Resources Mentioned
Join Presales Collective Slack: https://www.presalescollective.com/slack

Sol/Con 2026: https://www.presalescollective.com/solcon-2026 

Book mentioned: Think Again by Adam Grant: https://adamgrant.net/book/think-again/ 

Book mentioned: Thinking, Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11468377-thinking-fast-and-slow 

Key Topics Covered
Redefining Courage and Leadership

Making Tough Calls: Standing Up for Team Members

Focusing on Your Team rather than on Yourself

How to Prepare for a Leadership Role

It's OK to be Wrong

Developing Your Leadership Skills

Grounding Principles for Leadership

Timestamps
00:00 Welcome and Introduction
02:14 Defining Courage and Leadership in Presales
05:15 Making Tough Calls: A Story of Standing Up for What's Right
11:20 Focusing on Your Team rather than on Yourself
22:07 How to Prepare for a Leadership Role
27:40 It's OK to be Wrong
30:30 Developing Leadership Skills
37:42 Final Takeaways and Grounding Principles

In this episode, Jack Cochran is joined by Jon Billett, Founder and CEO of StoryQuadrant, to discuss why storytelling in presales needs to be treated as an industrial skill rather than a soft skill. They explore Jon's framework for the four types of stories every SE should master, the danger of "Mad Libs" style customer stories, and why the most important story is the one told after you leave the room. Jon shares insights from his 15 years in presales and his unique background as a member of the Magic Circle, revealing how structure, rather than content, creates memorable presentations that drive deals forward.
Follow Us
Connect with Jack Cochran: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackcochran/

Connect with Jon Billett: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jbillett/

Links and Resources Mentioned
Join Presales Collective Slack: https://www.presalescollective.com/slack

StoryQuadrant: https://storyquadrant.com/

Key Topics Covered
Why Storytelling is an Industrial Skill, Not a Soft Skill

The Story Quadrant Framework: Four Essential Story Types

The Mad Libs Problem in Presales

Discovery as Stepping Into Your Prospect's Story

The Power of Contrast in Creating Memory

What Makes Stories Retellable

Timestamps
00:00 Welcome
03:16 Jon's Journey to Storytelling
06:31 Storytelling as an Industrial Skill
09:23 Overcoming the Belief: "I'm Not a Good Storyteller"
12:24 The Success Story Trap
15:59 The Mad Libs Formula Problem
18:13 Discovery Stories: Stepping Into Their World
21:20 Maximizing Your 5% of Face Time
23:10 Your Story: The Four-Minute Trust Window
26:51 Positioning Stories: Nobody Cares About Your Offices
27:40 The Story They Tell
30:30 One Technique to Implement Tomorrow: The Power of Contrast