Why Nothing Works: Robber Barons, Algorithms & Governing AI
10/07/2026 | 44 min
In this episode, Historian and author Marc Dunkelman to explain why the 19th-century fight over railroad power is the exact fight we're about to have over algorithms and AI. Drawing on his acclaimed book Why Nothing Works: Who Killed Progress — and How to Bring It Back (a Best Book of the Year in the Financial Times and The Economist), Marc unpacks the two competing tools America has always used against concentrated power — antitrust vs. regulation — and why our government's "endemic diffusion of authority" now means nobody can decide anything, from congestion pricing to clean-energy transmission lines to AI safety. CHAPTERS 04:52 — When private projects come back to the public: Warp Speed, DARPA, CHIPS 08:55 — Two ways to fight concentrated power: break them up vs. regulate 10:52 — Railroads, island communities & the birth of regulation 12:29 — The railroad = algorithm parallel 20:33 — Why nothing gets built: the diffusion of authority 27:30 — "A voice without a veto" and the AI moment 32:53 — Where should government draw the line on new tech? 37:20 — Dunkelman the pragmatist: there is no simple answer 38:21 — Where math and AI can genuinely help public policy 40:46 — The lesson we keep overlooking
Follow Marc on X [https://x.com/MarcDunkelman] Get Marc's book, Why Nothing Works: https://amzn.to/4pbFvAB] Substack (https://breakingmath.substack.com/) X (https://x.com/breakingmathpod) Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/breakingmathmedia/) Bluesky (https://bsky.app/profile/breakingmath.bsky.social) Website (https://www.breakingmath.io/) YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@BreakingMathPod) Follow Noah on Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/profnoahgian/) X (https://x.com/ProfNoahGian) Bluesky (https://bsky.app/profile/profnoahgian.bsky.social) Follow Autumn on X (https://x.com/1autumn_leaf) Bluesky (https://bsky.app/profile/1autumnleaf.bsky.social) Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/1autumnleaf/) Substack (https://substack.com/@1autumnleaf) email: breakingmathpodcast@gmail.com
Can Math Save Journalism?: Julia Angwin on Proof, Power, and Amazon's Algorithm
02/07/2026 | 52 min
In this conversation we chat with Julia Angwin — Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist, founder of Proof News, and former Wall Street Journal and ProPublica reporter — to make the case that journalism should function more like mathematical proof than anecdote. We cover how Angwin's team at The Markup used a decision-tree model to prove Amazon was favoring its own products in search results by an 8-to-1 margin — a finding the House Antitrust Committee later cited when referring Amazon to the DOJ for possible perjury. We dig into her "ingredients label" approach to reporting at Proof News (hypothesis, sample size, techniques, limitations), the difference between mathematical proof and the scientific method, and why she thinks control over algorithmic media is now the central battleground for authoritarian power. She also unpacks her new book on resisting authoritarianism, built from interviews with dissidents worldwide, including the "Swiss cheese" model of personal security and why perfectionism is dangerous in a crisis. Chapters 09:50 Proof News: A New Era in Journalism 19:56 Data-Driven Investigations: A Case Study 30:02 The Future of Journalism and AI 32:53 The Evolution of Search Rankings 35:06 The Role of Algorithms in Information Access 36:41 Fighting Authoritarianism Through Journalism 44:52 Community Resistance Against Authoritarianism 48:33 The Dangers of Perfectionism in Resistance 51:26 Declaring a Position in Journalism 56:25 The Importance of Math in Modern Society
Julia Angwin's book, “On Courage” (https://amzn.to/448G8kY) Follow Julia Angwin on X (https://x.com/JuliaAngwin/) Bluesky (https://bsky.app/profile/juliaangwin.com) Proof News (https://www.proofnews.org/) Follow Breaking Math on Substack (https://breakingmath.substack.com/) X (https://x.com/breakingmathpod) Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/breakingmathmedia/) Bluesky (https://bsky.app/profile/breakingmath.bsky.social) Website (https://www.breakingmath.io/) YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@BreakingMathPod) Follow Noah on Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/profnoahgian/) X (https://x.com/ProfNoahGian) Follow Autumn on X (https://x.com/1autumn_leaf) Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/1autumnleaf/) email: breakingmathpodcast@gmail.com
The Proof in the Code: How Lean Is Quietly Rewriting Trust in Math (w/ Kevin Hartnett)
24/06/2026 | 45 min
In this episode, Autumn and Noah talk with Kevin Hartnett about why mathematicians are willing to spend years reducing an idea to a level of detail a machine can check, whether formal verification can catch an AI that's technically correct but fundamentally misaligned, the cold-start problem that kept earlier theorem-provers niche, and what it means for the future of mathematical trust once AI can generate proofs faster than any human community can read them. Timeline: 00:00 Introduction to Lean and Its Significance 03:18 The Journey of Writing the Book 05:13 Human Element in Mathematical Formalization 06:57 Understanding Formal Proofs in Mathematics 11:21 The Origins of Lean and Its Purpose 13:03 Misalignment in Software Specifications 14:39 Building Mathematical Libraries in Lean 17:23 Ensuring Accuracy in Mathematical Foundations 22:00 Overcoming the Cold Start Problem in Lean Adoption 24:36 The Future of Mathematical Proofs 30:26 AI's Role in Mathematics 38:29 Expanding Beyond Mathematics 41:40 The Long-Term Impact of Lean
The Proof in the Code is out now from Quanta Books. (https://amzn.to/3SuNlJm) Follow Kevin Hartnett on X (https://x.com/KSHartnett) Bluesky (https://bsky.app/profile/kevinhartnett.bsky.social) Follow Breaking Math on Substack (https://breakingmath.substack.com/) X (https://x.com/breakingmathpod) Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/breakingmathmedia/) Bluesky (https://bsky.app/profile/breakingmath.bsky.social) Website (https://www.breakingmath.io/) YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@BreakingMathPod) Follow Noah on Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/profnoahgian/) X (https://x.com/ProfNoahGian) Bluesky (https://bsky.app/profile/profnoahgian.bsky.social) Follow Autumn on X (https://x.com/1autumn_leaf) Bluesky (https://bsky.app/profile/1autumnleaf.bsky.social) Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/1autumnleaf/) Substack (https://substack.com/@1autumnleaf) email: breakingmathpodcast@gmail.com
How Data Science Exposes Injustice: Chad Topaz on Unlocking Justice
10/06/2026 | 40 min
What happens when the evidence of injustice is buried in messy, redacted, or inaccessible data? Mathematician and data scientist Chad Topaz joins Breaking Math to discuss his book Unlocking Justice. Together, we explore policing, sentencing, public records, Rikers Island, algorithmic risk, and the limits of quantifying human lives. This is a conversation about math, power, transparency, and the small acts of hope that can change systems.
Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Context of the Conversation 01:11 Chad's Journey from Mathematics to Social Justice 03:50 The Personal Nature of Chad's Book 04:40 Challenges in Data Collection and Access 08:03 The Impact of Data on Policing and Surveillance 09:51 Humorous Yet Tragic Data Collection Experiences 12:55 The Importance of Data Preparation and Cleaning 14:40 Navigating Imperfect Data and Its Consequences 17:48 The Balance Between Quantification and Human Stories 22:25 Incarceration and Public Health: The Rikers Island Case Study 31:36 Mathematics and Social Justice: Secrets of the Elite 39:03 Hope and Action: A Personal Journey in Data for Justice
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Rise of the Robots: Is AI Coming for Your Job?
02/06/2026 | 44 min
This conversation explores the profound impact of AI and automation on the future of work, economy, and society. Featuring Martin Ford, author of 'Rise of the Robots,' the discussion covers technological progress, economic implications, policy ideas like universal basic income, and the evolving nature of jobs in an AI-driven world.
Key Topics Impact of AI on employment and economy Potential of universal basic income as a solution Differences between past technological revolutions and AI The evolution from physical robots to AI software agents Jobs most vulnerable to automation and AI
Chapters 04:14 The Impact of Technological Revolutions on Employment 10:40 The Shift from Physical to Intellectual Automation 12:16 The Debate: Replacement vs. Augmentation of Jobs 18:01 Economic Implications of Job Displacement 21:00 Exploring Solutions: Universal Basic Income and Beyond 24:08 The Awakening of Economists 25:12 Historical Perspectives on Automation 28:27 Navigating the Future Job Market 32:57 The Role of Skilled Trades in an AI World 38:13 The Alien Thought Experiment 42:17 The Future of AI and Its Implications 44:14 The Rise of Automation and Its Impact 45:14 AI as a Digital Workforce 45:38 The Shifting Landscape of Work 46:08 Questioning the Future of Automation and AI
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Breaking Math is a deep-dive science, technology, engineering, AI, and mathematics podcast that explores the world through the lens of logic, patterns, and critical thinking. Hosted by Autumn Phaneuf, an expert in industrial engineering, operations research, and applied mathematics, and Noah Giansiracusa, a mathematician and leading voice in algorithmic literacy and technology ethics, the show is dedicated to uncovering the mathematical structures behind science, technology, and the systems shaping our future.What began as a conversation about math as a pure and elegant discipline has evolved into a platform for bold, interdisciplinary dialogue. Each episode of Breaking Math takes listeners on an intellectual journey—into the strange beauty of chaos theory, the ethical dilemmas of AI and algorithms, the hidden math of biology and evolution, or the physics governing black holes and the cosmos. Along the way, Autumn and Noah speak with working scientists, researchers, and thinkers across fields: computer scientists, physicists, chemists, engineers, economists, philosophers, and more.But this isn’t just a podcast about equations. It’s a show about how mathematics shapes the way we think, decide, build, and understand the world. Breaking Math pushes back against the idea that STEM belongs behind a paywall or an academic podium. It’s for the curious, the critical, and the creative—for anyone who believes that ideas should be rigorous, accessible, and infused with wonder.If you’ve ever wondered:What’s the math behind machine learning and modern algorithms?How do we quantify uncertainty in climate and economic models?Can intelligence or consciousness be meaningfully described in AI?Why does beauty matter in an equation?You’re in the right place.At its heart, Breaking Math is about building bridges—between disciplines, between experts and the public, and between abstract mathematics and the messy, magnificent reality we live in. With humor, clarity, and deep respect for complexity, Autumn and Noah invite you to rethink what math can be—and how it can help us shape a better future.Listen wherever you get your podcasts.Website: https://breakingmath.ioLinktree: https://linktr.ee/breakingmathmediaEmail: breakingmathpodcast@gmail.com
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