RIMScast

Welcome to RIMScast. Your host is Justin Smulison, Business Content Manager at RIMS, the Risk and Insurance Management Society.
 
In this episode, Justin interviews Roy Hock about "Future-proofing" a risk program and what it means. They discuss energy awareness and its importance, especially for an energy company. Roy tells of the insurance career journey that led him to Valero. He explains some of the products Valero provides. Roy tells how his Risk team mitigates risk for Valero. He explains how he manages Valero's captive insurance company. More than ever, there are regulatory risks that need to be mitigated where possible.
 
Roy speaks of the South Texas RIMS Chapter and its engagement programs, including a shooting event and golf events.

Listen for Roy's advice for young risk professionals who want to become strategic risk leaders over the next 10 years.
 
Key Takeaways:
[:01] About RIMS and RIMScast.
[:16] About this episode of RIMScast. Our topics are energy awareness and future-proofing a risk program. Our guest is Roy Hock, Director of Risk Finance & Casualty Insurance at Valero. But first…
[:45] RIMS-CRMP: RIMS Certification Week will be held from September 21st through the 25th. The week is a global celebration of the RIMS Certified Risk Management Professional certification.
[:57] It is a virtual event for you to learn about the certification, how it can strengthen your career and organization, and to understand how the RIMS-CRMP is shaping the future of risk management.
[1:07] A link to Certification Week is in this episode's show notes. You can also find it at RIMS.org/Webinars.
[1:14] Webinars: There are lots more RIMS Webinars coming up. On October 1st, Brown and Brown make their RIMS Webinars debut by discussing "The Future of Captives: What Risk Managers Should Think about Now."
[1:27] Global Risk Consultants will return on October 8th to present "The 2027 Risk Agenda: 10 Engineering Priorities Risk Leaders Should Act on Now".
[1:37] On Oct. 15, Verisk Maplecroft will lead the session "Beyond the Horizon: Turning External Risk Into Decision-Ready Insight".
[1:46] On Oct. 22, Zurich returns to tell us all about "Cybercrime, Fraud and AI: Real-World Threats and Practical Defenses for Business Leaders".
[1:57] Origami Risk returns on October 29th to present "Managing Insurance Programs at Scale: What Complex Portfolios Require".
[2:06] On Nov. 5th, Riskonnect returns to deliver the session "Signal Over Noise: Smarter Risk Analytics". Visit RIMS.org/Webinars to register.
[2:17] RIMS is back on YouTube. Our handle is @RIMSOfficialChannel. We've got plenty of videos there, including RIMScast, RIMScast Canada video podcasts, and other informative and entertaining content from RIMS. Subscribe to the channel today!
[2:36] On with the Show! Our guest today is Roy Hock, the Director of Risk Finance & Casualty Insurance at Valero, one of the world's largest oil refineries. We will discuss what it takes to future-proof Valero's risk program, and we will discuss Energy Awareness Month in October.
[3:08] You may know Roy from his presence in the RIMS Houston Chapter. He is a former president of that chapter, and you probably saw him at the RIMS Texas Regional in 2026.
[3:23] Announcement: The speaker's views are his own, and not necessarily the views of Valero.
[3:29] I'm looking forward to hearing how he manages risk for Valero, so let's get to it!
[3:34] Interview! Roy Hock, welcome to RIMScast!
[3:48] Roy started working for an insurance company right out of school. Most of his career has been in Houston. For the last six years, he has been in San Antonio at Valero.
[4:03] Roy shares his early career path: underwriting, reinsurance, broker. Then he got his ARM. One of his friends was looking for a risk manager for a startup in Houston. Roy took the opportunity. He loved it until it was sold.
[4:55] Roy moved on to another job. After a couple of years, Valero approached him, looking for a risk manager with experience in the oil and gas industry, for a job in San Antonio. Roy said yes. It's a wonderful city. He was very excited to be given the opportunity.
[5:21] Roy says, six years later, he's Director of Risk Finance & Casualty Insurance, and loving every minute of it.
[5:52] Roy says his work days are varied. Every day is an exciting new challenge. Roy oversees captive, casualty insurance, directors and officers insurance, and all other types of insurance. He works in a large team and is often the backup when people are out. He's keeping up his skills.
[6:27] Roy also oversees the Risk Information Management System. Part of his team focuses on that, and he helps support them.
[6:38] Roy says it's a big organization of 10,000 people, and there's always something happening. You never know what you're going to get from day to day.
[6:48] Justin says he and Roy met right after RISKWORLD for a session with Origami Risk, "Future-Proofing Your Risk Program". Justin wanted to extend the dialog with Roy with Energy Awareness Month coming up in October.
[7:06] Justin asks how important Energy Awareness Month is at Valero. Roy says every minute of every day is about energy awareness.
[7:24] Valero is a refiner. They buy crude and refine it into jet fuel, diesel, and unleaded gas. They also produce ethanol and renewable diesel. They have their hands in a lot of things, all geared to moving people around the world.
[7:52] Valero is always looking at how to create efficiencies and keep costs down. Energy is a big piece of that. They are in Texas, where wind and solar are big. Valero is a big energy consumer.
[8:10] They try to keep the energy costs down and build efficiencies within the operation, not only to keep costs down but also to be more self-sustaining so they're taking less off the grid.
[8:47] Roy says a risk manager not only has to understand the insurance side and the claims side, and how they interrelate, but you have to understand them in the context of your business.
[8:58] You need to know how you make money, where the risks are, the trends you see, and help the organization identify those trends and find ways to address them when possible, via a captive or an outside carrier or internally with programs to mitigate risks and keep losses down.
[9:23] Roy says if you don't understand the business, you can't do that very effectively. You need to understand the business. You don't need to know all the details of how a business works, but you need to know a very strong baseline and know who does know the answers.
[9:38] Roy says creating that internal network is just as important as having the external network you get in the insurance world. You need to sit in between those two.
[9:50] Roy has been at Valero for six years and two months. He came from an oil and gas background, on the insurance side of the business. He knew how the flow worked and what all the pieces did. Even after six years at Valero, Roy is still learning something every day.
[10:22] Roy says it took a good year or two to feel comfortable "speaking" the business. He got there by listening to executives talk to carriers, by listening to earnings calls, and by listening to businesses asking Valero for things. Roy loves being a learner.
[10:51] That's how Roy has gotten a baseline comfort with the business, and he knows who to ask when there are specific questions.
[11:05] Roy has four people on his team, acting as internal support on top of other things they do for the company. The broad risk management group is around 20 people, including an internal TPA and risk engineers with niche knowledge in fire, water, and protection.
[12:04] Roy says most companies don't do that. It's just how Valero developed over the years.
[12:21] Justin asks what future-proofing a risk program means to Roy. Roy says it's staying on the pulse of what's going on in the business and in the insurance commercial markets, and maintaining a strong network across the board. Use that information. Does this apply to Valero?
[12:58] Roy says you have to look at the workforce. Some people may retire. What does that mean? What will we look like in five years? Roy says we do a five-year team outlook for the knowledge transfer. What's on the horizon? 
[13:27] Twenty years ago, cyber was a thing, but it wasn't a real thing. Now, it's a bigger thing. It's something we have to look at. It's been insane. Roy asks, What's this AI going to do to us?
[13:47] Roy says a lot of that is coming from internal questions and resources. People from different departments bring questions. Roy says it's going to RIMS conferences and learning what's going on in the world, in the RIMS space, and in the technology space.
[14:07] Roy says bringing all that together is what helps future-proof us.
[14:39] Roy says he thinks all risk managers inherently do that. We're always trying to stay ahead of the ball. They want to stay at the forefront of what's going on in the world, so they can address it before it becomes a problem. That's the key. You're trying to address it.
[14:59] If it is a business decision, bring to bear your business knowledge in discussions: If we do this, this is what could happen, and this is how we can mitigate it. Do you want to take the cost of that mitigation? Roy says that having those discussions helps a lot, as well.
[15:21] A Quick Break! Many fantastic RIMS events are coming up in 2026. The RIMS Western Regional Conference will be held from October 4th through the 7th in Seattle, Washington. The agenda is live, and registration is open.
[15:38] Visit RIMSWesternRegional.com and the link in this episode's show notes for more information.
[15:44] Save the dates: October 18th through the 21st. In Quebec City, we will be hosting the 50th Annual RIMS Canada Conference. Booth sales are open, and sponsorship opportunities are still available. Visit RIMSCanadaConference.ca for more information.
[16:01] Also, remember to check out RIMS.org/Canada for our spinoff show, RIMScast Canada, with a new episode every month.
[16:10] The RIMS ERM Conference 2026 will be held on November 19th and 20th in Columbus, Ohio. Registration is open. Visit RIMS.org/ERM2026.
[16:23] We're already looking to RISKWORLD 2027, which will be held over four days in New Orleans, Louisiana, from April 18th through the 21st! Member-only Registration will open on November 4th, and General Registration will open on December 2nd.
[16:41] Get first access to the hotel block. Hotel reservations open on October 28th, ahead of public registration. Sitting this out is the real risk! The link to registration is in this episode's show notes.
[16:54] Let's Return to Our Interview with Roy Hock of Valero!
[17:01] Justin asks if electric vehicles (EVs) are a risk for Valero. Roy answers that Valero is a supply-and-demand organization. Futurists have predicted we would hit peak oil and we would not need oil. That has not come to pass.
[17:40] Valero's philosophy is to do what is right, what makes profit for shareholders, and what's good for the world as they see it. So far, that's been doing very well for them. Valero is proud of what they've accomplished.
[18:03] Roy says Valero has done things internally that people don't see to bring down its carbon footprint. Some regulatory switches have caused Valero to put those numbers forward. Roy says Valero is proud of those numbers and that their metrics are industry-leading.
[19:06] Roy says Valero has a good story to tell and now they are telling it. It has been interesting. Some things they have been doing; some things have been in their plans for 20 years, as part of trying to run a good business. They've been doing all the right things, all along.
[19:43] Roy says he thinks Valero's culture of humility is helping to future-proof the business. Interns and new hires seem to love Valero. Numbers are good. Retention numbers are really good. If young employees are unhappy with a company's culture, they look for something else.
[20:31] Roy says, not only do we compensate them well, but also the culture keeps them engaged and wanting to work for us. Someone retired from Roy's team after 35-plus years. Roy says that is very common there. People like to work at Valero. It's a good spot.
[20:53] Justin asks how geopolitical risks affect Roy's risk work at Valero. Roy says Valero has been forced to step up and participate in new ways recently. Around the world, regulations have changed. It's hard to plan a business around regulations that are here today and gone tomorrow.
[21:47] Roy says they have to be at the table to try to mitigate that risk. Roy says "100%" there is more volatility on the regulatory side than when Valero started. The regulatory environment across the world swings back and forth. Valero is just trying to run a good business.
[22:26] Roy says one side of the aisle doesn't like it, and the other side of the aisle doesn't like it for a completely different reason.
[22:35] Valero is having to come sit at the table more often than ever to try to make sure their voice is heard and that what they're trying to do is coming across, to try to mitigate that risk as much as possible. It's not an insurance risk but a legal-type risk that Valero has to address.
[23:08] Roy says that Risk has the attention of the C-Suite. In Roy's experience, even at previous companies, insurance is one of the big "spends" of a company. It's the Risk Management Group's role to mitigate risks, process claims, and make sure they stay under control.
[23:43] Roy says that through Legal, or Treasury, or directly to the CFO, there's usually a line of sight to the C-Suite and the Board. Roy says sometimes you're placing insurance for the Board. Roy helps his VP get ready for the annual update to the Board and the big renewal cycles.
[24:15] Roy says, in the renewal cycle, if Risk sees something on the horizon, it's easy for them, because of the networks they've built, to go to the C-Suite and communicate those risks or options to them. It's periodic. It happens all the time.
[24:43] One more Quick Break! RIMS, The Foundation for Risk ManagementTM, is dedicated to shaping the future of the profession. By making a contribution, you are strengthening the global risk management community and investing in the future of the industry.
[25:02] The Foundation also supports the Spencer Educational Foundation but has a different mission. The Foundation focuses on providing opportunities for those professionals who have already decided to enter risk management and are just getting started.
[25:16] You can learn more about the Foundation by visiting www.RIMS.org/FRM. 
While you're there, be sure to check out information about the Susan Meltzer Scholarship Fund, which was established to honor Ms. Meltzer, who was RIMS President in 1999 and 2000.
[25:35] Susan Meltzer was a cherished RIMS President and contributed so much to RIMS and the greater risk community. Learn more at RIMS.org/FRM.
[25:44] Let's Return to Our Interview with Roy Hock of Valero!
[25:50] Justin and Roy talk about Roy's membership in the South Texas RIMS Chapter. Roy is the former President of the RIMS Houston Chapter. He says the South Texas RIMS Chapter is fantastic.
[26:18] Roy says there are a lot of businesses coming into Texas, which means a lot of risk functions are moving in. The different chapters are growing. Everybody is doing a good job keeping their members engaged. They keep growing and finding new avenues of engagement.
[26:40] Roy says 32 years ago the South Texas RIMS Chapter led the way and started a shooting event in the Spring. Roy was a traditional golfer in Houston. Roy says the shooting event is awesome. They still do a golf event as well. Valero is a big sponsor of these types of events.
[27:03] Roy says his boss, Jeremy Bergeron, is a former President of the local chapter. Jeremy reports to the Board annually. Everybody on the team is hands-on, periodically touching base with the different groups.
[27:34] Roy says Valero has a long history with and a love of RIMS. Often, the South Texas RIMS Chapter gets invites to play golf with different vendors, and Valero has been very good about supporting that.
[27:52] Instead of chapter members going, they'll bring in students from St. Mary's University to attend these events as the future of the risk management industry. It's important to have them get engaged in these types of events, so the chapter helps support them and brings them in.
[28:12] Roy sits on the St. Mary's Risk Advisory Board. It's been a pleasure. He loves it, and he says these kids are great. He says we have great future people coming into the industry.
[28:30] Roy describes managing a captive for Valero. He has always been interested in how insurance companies function and work. When Valero approached him, it was for risk management and running a captive insurance company. He said, Sign me up!
[28:58] Roy says it's great. Day to day, they're doing everything an insurance company does. They talk to regulators, they have managers, they have investments, and all the different things that accompany an insurance company.
[29:09] Roy says Valero's captive is a company within a company, and an insurance company within a non-insurance-company environment. They insure Valero. Roy has a CPA on staff who is very helpful. She came from Valero's Accounting side, so she knows their needs.
[29:39] Roy says that's one of the unique things about a captive. You need to be able to integrate with your parent company to consolidate everything correctly. The CPA is the bridge that does that for the captive. She has been very helpful to Roy and has helped him learn about it.
[29:55] Roy says he didn't have a strong finance background. He knew basic accounting, but running a company is a little bit different. You need to know a little bit more. The CPA has helped Roy get educated on that. Accounting rules evolve, and regulations change all the time.
[30:21] Roy says he likes policies and insurance. Reading a policy may not be for everybody, but it is for Roy, so it has been great. He gets to generate policies, which is even more fun. He gets to interact with a lot of fun and exciting people at Valero and outside.
[31:08] Roy says they've redomiciled their captive to Texas. It's a growing captive, so there are a lot of moving parts, like a startup. He has to wear many hats. Valero allows Roy the opportunity to engage in helping with the process of pushing legislation. He likes the opportunity.
[32:00] Roy would advise young risk professionals coming out of schools today, already understanding policies and risk registers, to continue their education. Designations are important, including the RIMS-CRMP. Roy got the ARM before the RIMS-CRMP was available.
[33:10] Roy says things are changing constantly. When Roy took the ARM, there was no cyber piece. There is a piece on cyber now. It's a dynamic and ever-changing industry. Always keep your education up. Roy also advises that you need to build your network.
[33:38] Roy says in insurance and risk management, and in your organization, you need to build your network so you can do your job and learn about what other people are doing in your organization and outside your organization.
[33:53] Going to conferences helps in ways you don't even understand. As an industry, risk stands out as being more personable. You have data, systems, and risks, but you layer a personal connection on top of all of it.
[34:23] Roy says a lot of students come out of school without a network. Roy tells his team to introduce these students to as many people as you can. Make sure that they get to all the conferences that they can. In the industry, we have a responsibility to help them with that.
[34:58] As new risk professionals join the workforce, Roy says they should know that the traditional industries are not going anywhere. They are still very valuable and have a lot of career "legs" in them. You can make a great career working at an energy or energy-related company.
[35:14] Roy says new risk professionals should keep an open mind to it and see what they like. As many pieces as there are on the insurance side, there are as many on the energy side. There are all types of energy and all types of places to play.
[35:35] Roy says to move around, learn about these different pieces, and see what speaks to you. If you don't like what you're doing, you're not going to do as good a job. If you like what you're doing, you're always going to push yourself to do the best job.
[35:33] Special thanks again to Roy Hock for joining us here on RIMScast! I've got a link in this episode's show notes to the on-demand video of "Future-Proofing Your Risk Program: Keeping Pace with Scale, Complexity, and Visibility," featuring Roy Hock and presented by Origami Risk.
[36:10] Visit https://www.RIMS.org/Webinars and scroll down the page to find it.
[36:14] Happy Energy Awareness Month!
[36:16] Plug Time! Become a RIMS member and get access to the tools, thought leadership, and network you need to succeed. Visit RIMS.org/membership or email membershipdept@RIMS.org for more information.
[36:34] Risk Knowledge is the RIMS searchable content library that provides relevant information for today's risk professionals. Materials include RIMS executive reports, survey findings, contributed articles, industry research, benchmarking data, and more.
[36:50] For the best reporting on the profession of risk management, read Risk Management Magazine at RMMagazine.com. It is written and published by the best minds in risk management.
[37:03] Justin Smulison is the Business Content Manager at RIMS. Please remember to subscribe to RIMScast on your favorite podcasting app. You can email us at Content@RIMS.org.
[37:15] Practice good risk management, stay safe, and thank you again for your continued support!
 
Links:
ChicagoLand Risk Forum | Sept. 24, 2026
RIMS Certification Week: Sept. 21‒24 | Complimentary For All
RIMS Western Regional Conference — Oct. 4‒7, 2026 | Seattle, WA | Register Today.
RIMS Canada Conference — Oct. 18‒21, 2026 | Quebec City | www.rimscanadaconference.ca | Sponsorship Opportunities Available
RIMS ERM Conference 2026 | November 19‒20 in Columbus, Ohio | Registration Now Open! | www.rims.org/ERM2026
RISKWORLD 2027 Registration
RIMScast Canada — Episodes Now Live — Watch the new video with Sophie Grégoire Trudeau.
The Strategic and Enterprise Risk Center
RIMS, the Foundation for Risk Management
Spencer Educational Foundation — Scholarships and Grants | Open Calls and Timelines.
RIMS Now
RIMS-Certified Risk Management Professional (RIMS-CRMP) | Insights Video Series Featuring Joe Milan!
RIMS Diversity Equity Inclusion Council
RIMS-CRMP Stories
RISK PAC | RIMS Advocacy
RIMScast on YouTube!
RIMS Risk Management Magazine | Contribute | Q2 2026 Issue Now Available
Sponsor RIMScast — Sales@RIMS.org
"Future-Proofing Your Risk Program: Keeping Pace with Scale, Complexity, and Visibility"
 
Upcoming RIMS-CRMP Virtual Workshops:
Full RIMS-CRMP Prep Course Schedule
See the full calendar of RIMS Virtual Workshops
 
Upcoming RIMS Webinars:
RIMS.org/Webinars
RIMS Certification Week: Sept. 22‒24 | Complimentary For All
"The Future of Captives: What Risk Managers Should Be Thinking About Now" | Sponsored by Brown & Brown | Oct. 1, 2026
"The 2027 Risk Agenda: 10 Engineering Priorities Risk Leaders Should Act on Now" | Sponsored by Global Risk Consultants | Oct. 8, 2026
"Beyond the Horizon: Turning External Risk Into Decision-Ready Insight" | Sponsored by Verisk Maplecroft | Oct. 15, 2026
"Cybercrime, Fraud and AI: Real-World Threats and Practical Defenses for Business Leaders" | Sponsored by Zurich | Oct. 22, 2026
"Managing Insurance Programs at Scale: What Complex Risk Portfolios Require" | Sponsored by Origami Risk | Oct. 29, 2026
"Signal Over Noise: Smarter Risk Analytics" | Sponsored by Riskonnect | Nov. 5, 2026
 
Related RIMScast Episodes:
"From Wellhead to Burner Tip: Eric Lobser's ERM Journey"
"When Geopolitics Hits the Balance Sheet with Cari Stinebower"
 
Sponsored RIMScast Episodes:
"48 Hours From a Storm: What to Do Before A Hurricane Strikes" | Sponsored by Global Risk Consultants, a TÜV SÜD Company (New!)
"AI-Scale, Risk Ready: Engineering Controls for the New Data Center Boom" | Sponsored by Global Risk Consultants, a TÜV SÜD Company
"Facing Into Risk: Navigating the New Risk Landscape" (New!) | Sponsored by AXA XL
"Secondary Perils, Major Risks: The New Face of Weather-Related Challenges" | Sponsored by AXA XL
"The ART of Risk: Rethinking Risk Through Insight, Design, and Innovation" | Sponsored by Alliant
"Mastering ERM: Leveraging Internal and External Risk Factors" | Sponsored by Diligent
"Cyberrisk: Preparing Beyond 2025" | Sponsored by Alliant
"The New Reality of Risk Engineering: From Code Compliance to Resilience" | Sponsored by AXA XL
"Change Management: AI's Role in Loss Control and Property Insurance" | Sponsored by Global Risk Consultants, a TÜV SÜD Company
"Demystifying Multinational Fronting Insurance Programs" | Sponsored by Zurich
"Understanding Third-Party Litigation Funding" | Sponsored by Zurich
"What Risk Managers Can Learn From School Shootings" | Sponsored by Merrill Herzog
"Simplifying the Challenges of OSHA Recordkeeping" | Sponsored by Medcor
"How Insurance Builds Resilience Against an Active Assailant Attack" | Sponsored by Merrill Herzog
"Third-Party and Cyber Risk Management Tips" | Sponsored by Alliant
 
RIMS Publications, Content, and Links:
RIMS Membership — Whether you are a new member or need to transition, be a part of the global risk management community!
RIMS Virtual Workshops
On-Demand Webinars
RIMS-Certified Risk Management Professional (RIMS-CRMP)
RISK PAC | RIMS Advocacy
RIMS Strategic & Enterprise Risk Center
RIMS-CRMP Stories — Featuring RIMS President Manny Padilla!
 
RIMS Events, Education, and Services:
RIMS Risk Maturity Model®
 
Sponsor RIMScast: Contact sales@rims.org or pd@rims.org for more information.
 
Want to Learn More?
Keep up with the podcast on RIMS.org, and listen on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.
 
Have a question or suggestion? Email: Content@rims.org.
 
Join the Conversation!
Follow @RIMSorg on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn.
 
About our guest:
Roy C. Hock,  Director, Risk Finance & Casualty Insurance, Valero
October is Energy Awareness Month.
 
Production and engineering provided by Podfly.

Welcome to RIMScast. Your host is Justin Smulison, Business Content Manager at RIMS, the Risk and Insurance Management Society.
 
In this episode, Justin interviews Sal Lifrieri, former NYPD detective and director for NYC's Office of Emergency Management during the 9/11 attacks. Sal is the author of the new book, Leading Through Chaos: What Decades in Intelligence, Crisis, and Chaos Taught Me About Leadership. As a security and counterterrorism expert, Sal Lifrieri draws on a 40-year career spanning homicide investigations, hostage negotiations, intelligence operations, emergency management, and corporate security. His experience offers timely lessons on how leaders can anticipate threats, respond decisively, and protect citizens during our most challenging and uncertain moments.

Justin and Sal discuss practical, layered security for houses of worship, often involving volunteers, controlling access, and knowing who is entering the building, all while maintaining a spirit of welcome. They discuss what should happen well before a disruption to a service, what responses work if a person disrupts a service, and what roles different respondents, including law enforcement, can play. Sal points out that the best deterrent is intelligence information, and he advises how staff can get information before the service.

Listen for Sal's advice on security teams, pre-planning, and having a well-defined evacuation strategy.
 
Key Takeaways:
[:01] About RIMS and RIMScast.
[:16] About this episode of RIMScast. Our guest is Sal Lifrieri, a security and terrorism expert. We will discuss tips for how to keep houses of worship safe, especially during the High Holy Days. But first…
[:45] RIMS-CRMP: RIMS Certification Week will be held from September 21st through the 25th. There is a link to the events in this episode's show notes, including three free webinars. The week is a global celebration of the RIMS Certified Risk Management Professional certification.
[1:02] It is a virtual event for you to learn about the certification, how it can strengthen your career and organization, and understand how the RIMS-CRMP is shaping the future of risk management.
[1:13] A link to Certification Week is in this episode's show notes. You can also find it at RIMS.org/Webinars.
[1:19] Webinars: There are lots more RIMS Webinars coming up. On September 17th, AXA XL returns to present "Beyond the Loss Count: What Property Claims Reveal about Frequency, Severity, and Resilience."
[1:32] On October 1st, Brown and Brown make their RIMS Webinars debut by discussing "The Future of Captives: What Risk Managers Should Think about Now."
[1:42] Global Risk Consultants will return on October 8th to present "The 2027 Risk Agenda: 10 Engineering Priorities Risk Leaders Should Act on Now".
[1:52] On Oct. 15, Verisk Maplecroft will lead the session "Beyond the Horizon: Turning External Risk Into Decision-Ready Insight".
[2:01] On Oct. 22, Zurich returns to tell us all about "Cybercrime, Fraud and AI: Real-World Threats and Practical Defenses for Business Leaders".
[2:13] Origami Risk returns on October 29th with a session that will be announced shortly.
[2:19] On Nov. 5th, Riskonnect returns to deliver the session "Signal Over Noise: Smarter Risk Analytics". Visit RIMS.org/Webinars to register.
[2:30] RIMS is back on YouTube. Our handle is @RIMSOfficialChannel. We've got plenty of videos there, including RIMScast, RIMScast Canada video podcasts, and other informative and entertaining content from RIMS. Subscribe to the channel today!
[2:48] On with the Show! Our guest today has 40 years of experience leading through high-pressure situations. He is a former New York Police Department Detective 1st Grade. 
[3:00] He served on the department's elite Hostage Negotiation Team and later, the Protective Operations Unit within the Intelligence Division, overseeing Protective Intelligence and Threat Investigations for the Mayor of New York City.
[3:14] He is the author of a new book, Leading Through Chaos: What Decades in Intelligence, Crisis and Chaos Taught Me About Leadership. He is here to discuss safety precautions and preparedness for houses of worship.
[3:30] His name is Sal Lifrieri, and you may know him from his RIMS events appearances and sessions.
[3:37] This is going to be a really great dialog, not just for RIMS members, but also for the public, for those individuals who may not be an official risk manager for your house of worship but have to take the lead on ensuring the security and safety of your congregants. Let's get to it!
[3:58] Interview! Sal Lifrieri, welcome to RIMScast! 
[4:19] Sal spent 20 years with the NYPD, from Patrol to Anti-crime to the Hostage Negotiation Team, which he regards as the highlight of his career. He went to the Intelligence Division, in charge of the Russian Organized Crime Project, then moved over to Protection.
[5:03] Sal says the Intelligence Division of the NYPD is modeled after the Secret Service. Half the house does Criminal and half the house does Protection. Sal moved to Protection and took over the Threat operations and Intelligence operations for the elected officials and the Mayor.
[5:23] Sal's final assignment was Mayor Giuliani. He took Emergency Management away from the Police Department and created a Mayoral Agency. About seven went over from the NYPD. [5:43] Sal says they sought to create the city's planning for any crisis or disaster. At the time, that was chemical and biological terrorism. They worked on the different threats that came through the city.
[6:00] In January of '01, Sal retired as a Director of Security and Intelligence Operations out of OEM and started a consulting career. 25 years later, he is still at it.
[6:24] Justin says that we're recording this in Early September, and this episode is being released a week after the 25th Anniversary of the September 11th terror attacks.
[6:39] Sal says this anniversary is going to be different, considering that it is 25 years, and with what's going on in the world, the different issues and the volatilities that exist, and the things that are occurring with synagogues and houses of worship across the country and the world.
[7:10] Sal says also, the fact that Rosh Hashanah starts on 9/11 is significant. That confluence of many things escalates the threat profile.
[7:40] Justin says, as a member of a synagogue, in the last 25 years at his temple, he has seen an armed guard outside during the High Holy Days. Justin is at a Reformed temple. For Hebrew School, a security guard checks parent IDs.
[8:06] Justin says, These are things they didn't have to worry about when he was a kid. Clearly, the risk threat has heightened. Sal agrees.
[8:22] Sal says the threat profile has increased, and something problematic is the availability of social media for children. Parents used to hide children from bad things in the world, but today everything is out there and open for discovery by children. Children are no longer as innocent.
[8:53] Justin asks about protection at houses of worship. Sal says you need concentric circles of perimeters, starting from the outside and working your way in. The protection starts weeks and months before any of these events take place.
[9:44] Start looking at inappropriate correspondence that may be coming in and things that are happening at other facilities around you. Look at the congregation. If your congregation has a high-profile individual, that person may be a target. There are several things you have to look at.
[10:12] That planning has to start very early. As you go from the very wide, you start bringing it down closer and closer. It's always great to be able to have law enforcement in front of you, whether a uniformed officer or even just a vehicle. It's definitely a deterrent.
[11:06] Justin says that most houses of worship do not have a dedicated risk manager. The person with that responsibility could be a facilities director, clergy, or a volunteer. He asks what people in that situation should assess first.
[11:37] Sal says people look at threat assessment as Voodoo. For personnel who don't have the expertise, law enforcement credential, or background, ask the building engineer or the guard, "If you were going to do something bad to this place, how would you do it?"
[12:24] Once you can convince them that you're not accusing them, it's incredible what they can tell you. Ask, "Applying common sense, what are those things that you think are problematic and worry about?" They can start developing ideas of what might work well.
[13:01] One of Sal's clients is a prominent synagogue in Manhattan. They were having planning meetings before the High Holy Days. One of the people on the security committee is a volunteer usher. He asked how we could check people in faster as they come in.
[13:26] Sal says you want that feedback. You want them to tell you how things are operating and what they are thinking about. Apply basic logic to what you think might be wrong and go with it. Justin suggests asking someone on the custodial staff because they know the building.
[14:05] Sal says the custodians are the people who, for the most part, get overlooked. They see what's lying on the desk or in the trash, such as inappropriate correspondence that came in. They're a critical element of who should be talked to in a team approach.
[14:33] Justin asks about doors or windows that don't secure properly, such as the shooting in Uvalde, Texas, where the shooter entered through a closed door that was supposed to be locked.
[15:03] Sal says don't rely on Security to give you the total picture. Go to the people using these things every day that can give you a good heads-up about what may be wrong.
[15:19] A Quick Break! Many fantastic RIMS events are coming up in 2026. The 11th Annual Chicagoland Risk Forum will return to the Old Post Office on Thursday, September 24th, 2026. Visit ChicagolandRiskForum.org for more information.
[15:35] The RIMS Western Regional Conference will be held from October 4th through the 7th in Seattle, Washington. The agenda is live, and registration is open. Visit RIMSWesternRegional.com and the link in this episode's show notes for more information.
[15:52] Save the dates: October 18th through the 21st. In Quebec City, we will be hosting the 50th Annual RIMS Canada Conference. Booth sales are open, and sponsorship opportunities are still available. Visit RIMSCanadaConference.ca for more information.
[16:10] Also, remember to check out RIMS.org/Canada for our spinoff show, RIMScast Canada, with a new episode every month.
[16:18] The RIMS ERM Conference 2026 will be held on November 19th and 20th in Columbus, Ohio. Registration is open. Visit RIMS.org/ERM2026.
[16:31] We're already looking to RISKWORLD 2027, which will be held over four days in New Orleans, Louisiana, from April 18th through the 21st! RISKWORLD 2027 Member-only Registration will open on November 4th, and General Registration will open on December 2nd.
[16:49] Get first access to the hotel block. Hotel reservations open on October 28th, ahead of public registration. Sitting this out is the real risk! The link to registration is in this episode's show notes.
[17:03] Let's Return to Our Interview with Security Expert Sal Lifrieri!
[17:10] Justin asks about the balance of keeping a house of worship secure but also maintaining a spirit of openness, welcoming, and handicap accessibility.
[17:27] Sal says that's the biggest difficulty with any house of worship. You don't want to have the armed camp, yet you want the security. Trying to balance that is difficult. It's a matter of establishing the policies and protocols.
[17:50] Sal says one thing they've done at the synagogue in Manhattan is called the Trusted Traveler Program. If you're a member of the congregation, you have a ticket with a QR code and ID that you are the person on the ticket; you don't have to worry about magnetometers; you're in.
[18:22] If you're unknown, or don't have a ticket, you go to a Will Call window and go through better screening.
[18:32] If someone seems out of place, you can talk with them. Sal does security training programs, teaching that you can walk up to people and engage them in conversation. If they're up to no good, they will move on. If they're really lost, it becomes a great visitor interaction.
[19:38] From the security side, you're able to garner more intelligence information from that interaction to make your decision as to what you want to do. If you're just watching and you're not interacting with them, you have no idea what's going on.
[20:00] You want to make your determinations based on intelligence information you're going to garner. The only way you're going to get it is by interacting with that person.
[20:21] Justin asks about someone becoming disruptive during a service. What should staff and volunteers be trained to recognize in those first, critical moments? Sal says you should already have met with leadership and decided: If this happens, then what?
[21:09] Some rabbis have decided not to be physical. Let them say their piece and get it over with, and then ask them to leave, and hope they leave.
[21:32] Sal has seen situations where multiple people will infiltrate. One will get up and start yelling and protesting, and you get that person out, and another one pops up, and then another one pops up. It continues for five or six people.
[21:57] Sal says, going back to preplanning, was there any inappropriate correspondence that had come through? Was there anything on social media that indicated that there may be a problem?
[22:10] A lot of times, people will see things and say, it's a nut; leave it alone. They'll hit delete, or they'll throw the letter out, never understanding that these things have a natural progression.
[22:24] Sal quotes the U.S. Secret Service: Nobody just snaps. It's the slow progression of time, of failing to do things.
[22:34] Before they become operational, they're going to write an email; they're going to write a letter. There may be a phone call. There may be things that are going to give you an indication that we may have a problem here.
[22:47] Sal shares a case of a recent event where someone stood up, started protesting, and assaulted a congregant and a security officer. The after-action report determined he wasn't a member of the congregation, but it was an open, non-ticketed event, so he was able to get in.
[23:27] Sal thinks more investigation is needed. Did he just happen to show up, or was there some indication that this was going to happen? It comes down to your planning before the event.
[24:02] Sal says it comes down to organization. You can bring in a consultant like Sal, but the consultant is not going to be there all the time. You want to create a team, including IT.
[24:38] If something happens during a streamed service, Sal recommends shutting the stream off so supporters of the protesting individual or group don't get to watch it. You don't want the protest to go viral.
[24:57] Sal says a rabbi at one synagogue didn't want any comments to be posted. Sal wants to see the comments. If someone is posting death threats in the middle of a service, you want that intelligence information. You want to know what's going on in the background.
[25:28] It's dealing with the AV team, IT, the custodians, and the rabbi ahead of time. If we have to evacuate, where's the best place to go? How do we do it most effectively? It's creating that plan. If you're trying to create the response in the middle of a crisis, you're way too late.
[25:55] You have to have a plan ahead of time. You need to know the local law enforcement officers ahead of time. They need to understand you. You need to understand the rules they're under. With demonstrations, it's a very touchy situation. Demonstrators have a right to protest.
[26:18] Sal says, depending on what part of the country you are in, and what cities you are in, there are rules of engagement for law enforcement to follow. Sometimes, that's in direct conflict with what the facility wants.
[26:31] Those things have to be ironed out and discussed ahead of time so there's no mystery about what happens, if it happens.
[26:38] Justin says the protesting can happen outside the location, not inside. Once you're inside, your right to free speech is minimized.
[26:48] Sal says, you go through the process of explaining to them, especially if it's an open event; once they're in, and they've been disruptive, you're advising them they have to leave. If they don't, they violate a trespassing act and can be arrested for trespassing.
[27:16] That turns into a negotiation in the middle of a protest. In NYC, it involves multiple levels of law enforcement hierarchy and then giving the protester 30 minutes to end before effecting an arrest. In the middle of a service, dealing with all of this could become highly problematic.
[28:05] Sal says that what you really need to do is establish policies and protocols ahead of time. Identify what the potential risks are and the issues you may face. Overcome the hurdles of thinking it will never happen here and the budget.
[29:04] What's the risk, and how much money do we have to spend on it? The two have to balance each other.
[29:14] Sal is annoyed when consultants come in and identify outrageous risks with outrageous requirements that the client could never mitigate. It's a defense plan so that if anything went bad, the consultant can say they told you.
[29:45] You have to modify it into a reasonable plan. What are the risks that could seriously potentially happen? What are the things we need to do to mitigate them? How do we apply a budget effectively?
[30:02] Justin says these are great tips. We've got plenty of holidays coming up across all religions. This is an evergreen episode for us.
[30:24] Justin says the security for any house of worship relies heavily on volunteers a lot of the time. Is there a good practice or training sequence to hand off the baton from one volunteer to the next, especially if there's frequent turnover?
[30:40] Sal says, good communication, have volunteers on the security committee, and as they get their feet under them, get some practice, and do reviews after an event or High Holy Day: What did we do right, what did we do wrong, and what are the things we could do better?
[31:13] Pass the baton to the next person and work with them. Sal says his experience with that has been positive. You see them talking to each other in a concerted effort to make things better.
[31:44] Sal says a couple of years ago we used printed tickets, and now we deploy technology to track who's coming in and can marry that data with any inappropriate correspondence or investigations we may be incurring for people who have been identified as potential problems.
[32:17] Sal says being able to marry those two technologies together is something that has been growing in the right direction. As the risks evolve and become more prominent, facilities, especially houses of worship, are starting to take risks a little more seriously.
[32:38] Houses of worship are recognizing they need to step up and do things that could make them safer. At the same time, you develop an incredible sense of community when you have a bunch of people willing to get together, work towards a common goal, and learn something.
[33:00] Sal says unfortunately, these risks occur, but the positive side is that it's bringing the communities together and giving them the opportunity to tighten up their security.
[33:15] One more Quick Break! RIMS, The Foundation for Risk ManagementTM, is dedicated to shaping the future of the profession. By making a contribution, you are strengthening the global risk management community and investing in the future of the industry.
[33:34] The Foundation also supports the Spencer Educational Foundation but has a different mission. The Foundation focuses on providing opportunities for those professionals who have already decided to enter risk management and are just getting started.
[33:49] You can learn more about the Foundation by visiting www.RIMS.org/FRM. 
While you're there, be sure to check out information about the Susan Meltzer Scholarship Fund, which was established to honor Ms. Meltzer, who was RIMS President in 1999 and 2000.
[34:07] Susan Meltzer was a cherished RIMS President and contributed so much to RIMS and the greater risk community. Learn more at RIMS.org/FRM.
[34:16] Let's Return to Our Interview with Security Expert Sal Lifrieri!
[34:31] Justin mentions that Sal has been a presence at RISKWORLD and local RIMS chapter events. Sal says he had the privilege to talk to a RIMS conference in Austin. It was a great experience. He also did a couple of talks for a local chapter.
[35:02] Sal says the RIMS organization is picture-perfect for education, training, and leadership for people in risk management. He says, you go to give a talk and inevitably, walk away learning things yourself that you can deploy. He says it's been great and looks forward to doing it again.
[35:35] Sal says when he talks at a RIMS event, the attendees are dealing with the risks; they want to hear about the risks, they want to hear about how we identify those risks, and what we do for mitigation of the risks.
[36:03] Sal says everybody likes the intelligence component behind it. How do you identify that risk? How do you find a needle in a haystack? You're talking to people who are doing this on a daily basis. They have a vested interest in what you're talking about.
[36:48] Justin talks about risk managers needing to hear the bad news so they can prevent it for their own organizations. Sal says they walk into the CEO's or CFO's office and have to tell them, these are the risks; these are the problems.
[36:59] The General Counsel doesn't want to hear it. The CFO doesn't want to pay for it. The COO sees it as another risk to worry about. The risk manager is in an incredibly difficult position. Everybody wants to duck and cover when they see the risk manager coming.
[37:25] Sal says, on the flip side, if they do the proper planning and proper mitigation, and enough resource allocation, and address all of that, then they wind up mitigating a lot of problems that could decimate a company. The message sometimes gets lost in the C-Suite.
[38:00] Justin mentions sports arenas. Sal says for a sports arena, you have 50, 60, or 100,000 people showing up for an event. How do you get them in? How do you get them out? Sal recalls the shooting in Las Vegas from the hotel. What was the planning for evacuating 20,000?
[38:59] Justin asks how to handle a situation that is outside. At the time of recording, they are in the pre-planning for 9/11 security. One of Sal's clients is the developer of the World Trade Center. They have four buildings on site. 100,000 people will attend the memorial service.
[33:33] Sal says they are also looking at the possibility of protests. How do you deal with protests with the potential to go violent? What's the continuity-of-operations plan? One of the benefits is that it's on Friday and there is not a lot of occupancy anticipated in the buildings.
[40:05] If something happens, what do you do with the people? Sal says when he was in OEM, there was a huge blizzard. The mayor decided to close everything down at 3:00 and send everybody home.
[40:27] They called the head of the MTA to come to City Hall. He told him he couldn't do it; they didn't have the staffing to move hundreds of thousands of people out of the city at 3:00 p.m. They would have needed a day's planning. 60,000 people would be left at Grand Central Station.
[41:09] Sal says you can make decisions and recommendations of what you want, but you have to think about secondary impacts. How do you move people? Where do you put them? You don't want a knee-jerk to one crisis to develop a second crisis.
[41:29] If you do it the first time, you'll do it the second time; if you do it the second, you'll do it the third. Then before you know it, you're so far downrange you forgot what started the first crisis, and you're trying to deal with something that should have never occurred.
[42:13] Sal advises on leadership in a crisis. One of the keys in his book, Leading Through Chaos, is, first, to check your ego at the door. You need the ability to stop and think. Sometimes people in leadership positions think that they have to have all the answers. That's not the case.
[42:45] A lot of times, you're dealing with situations that are totally foreign to you, that you've had no experience dealing with. Be willing to stop and take a deep breath. Take a good listen to what is going on.
[43:32] Everybody around you is willing to help. You have to be able to take that advice. That's what makes you a great leader: letting the people around you do what they do best.
[43:27] Sal, it's been an insightful discussion. I want to thank you for joining us here on RIMScast.
[43:36] Special thanks again to Sal Lifriere for joining us here on RIMScast! Remember to check out his book, Leading Through Chaos: What Decades in Intelligence, Crisis, and Chaos Taught Me About Leadership. Hopefully, we see him at another RIMS event in 2027.
[43:52] Plug Time! Become a RIMS member and get access to the tools, thought leadership, and network you need to succeed. Visit RIMS.org/membership or email membershipdept@RIMS.org for more information.
[44:10] Risk Knowledge is the RIMS searchable content library that provides relevant information for today's risk professionals. Materials include RIMS executive reports, survey findings, contributed articles, industry research, benchmarking data, and more.
[44:25] For the best reporting on the profession of risk management, read Risk Management Magazine at RMMagazine.com. It is written and published by the best minds in risk management.
[44:40] Justin Smulison is the Business Content Manager at RIMS. Please remember to subscribe to RIMScast on your favorite podcasting app. You can email us at Content@RIMS.org.
[44:52] Practice good risk management, stay safe, and thank you again for your continued support!
 
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"Leading Through Chaos: What Decades in Intelligence, Crisis, and Chaos Taught Me About Leadership"

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Related RIMScast Episodes:
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About our guest:
Sal Lifrieri, former NYPD detective and director for NYC's Office of Emergency Management.
Author: Leading Through Chaos: What Decades in Intelligence, Crisis, and Chaos Taught Me About Leadership
"Former NYPD Detective Talks Midtown Security."
 
Production and engineering provided by Podfly.

Welcome to RIMScast. Your host is Justin Smulison, Business Content Manager at RIMS, the Risk and Insurance Management Society.
 
In this episode, Justin interviews Janice Ochenkowski about her leadership, her career path, serving in RIMS External Affairs and later as RIMS President. They discuss the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, the loss of lives, and the impact the attacks had on life in the U.S.
Justin and Janice talk about Janice's role in passing the Terrorism Risk Insurance Act (TRIA).
They also address the financial and housing crisis of 2007-2008. Janice relates her testimony before Congress on various matters over the years, and how her RIMS leadership held her in her employment.

Listen for wisdom on adapting and changing with the times, and using leadership opportunities to help your business as you move your risk career forward.
 
Key Takeaways:
[:01] About RIMS and RIMScast.
[:16] About this episode of RIMScast. We will be joined by former RIMS President Janice Ochenkowski.
[:35] Janice will discuss how her time on the RIMS Board and as RIMS President helped ensure the passage of TRIA, the Terrorism Risk Insurance Act, in the aftermath of the 9/11 terror attacks.
[:49] There will be plugs later on, and we will learn about Janice's fascinating career, but I wanted to address the fact that this episode is being released on September 8th, 2026, a few days before the 25th anniversary of the 9/11 terror attacks in the U.S.
[1:10] Before we get started, I'd like to welcome back RIMS's Chief Executive Officer, Gary LaBranche, to say a few words.
[1:18] Message from Gary LaBranche: 2026 marks a quarter-century since terrorist attacks on the United States killed nearly 3,000 people, injured many more, and impacted the lives of millions.
[1:30] This RIMScast podcast provides the opportunity to reflect on the lives lost and the lasting impact of this tragedy on survivors, families, friends, first responders, and everyone who witnessed that horrendous day and has borne its burden over the past 25 years.
[1:51] The events of 9/11 also revealed the best in human nature, such as the warm, welcoming affection shown by Canadians when U.S.-bound flights were diverted to Gander, Montreal, Vancouver, Halifax, and other locations in the aftermath of 9/11, as we learn in this podcast.
[2:11] RIMS played a leading role in crafting and passing the Terrorism Risk Insurance Act (TRIA), which established an insurance backstop in the event of a future large-scale terrorist attack on America.
[2:24] RIMS is working right now on bipartisan legislation in both the U.S. House and Senate to reauthorize TRIA. As we commemorate this day, let us rededicate ourselves to the important work that risk management does to make the world safer, more secure, and more sustainable.
[2:46] On with the Show! Here to provide a brief history of RIMS's collaboration with members of Congress and the global insurance and risk management community is Janice Ochenkowski.
[2:59] Janice was RIMS President in 2007, and as we will learn in this episode, she had a colorful career with RIMS and with Jones Lang LaSalle, a commercial real estate property owner.
[3:13] Her RIMS participation prior to her presidency was instrumental in helping her get TRIA passed by Congress, so there's a lot to learn today … Let's get to it!
[3:23] Interview! Janice Ochenkowski, welcome to RIMScast! 
[4:04] Janice joined the Chicago Chapter of RIMS, not understanding the larger RIMS organization. She became an active member and an officer. She was President of the Chicago Chapter the year that Chicago member Art Bostwick was RIMS President.
[4:55] Janice says Art was a good mentor for her. He encouraged her to follow in his footsteps to be national president. She laughed, but many years later, she did.
[5:20] Janice started her risk management career in 1980; she joined the RIMS Chicago Chapter in '82 or '83. After moving through the chairs in the Chicago Chapter, she became a delegate to the RIMS Conference, started working in various committees, and moved into leadership.
[5:47] Janice was elected to the Board, took on responsibilities for different chairs, and ended up in charge of Government Affairs.
[6:01] Lance Ewing, the President at the time, asked the Board what roles they wanted to take. Janice said she would do anything except legislative stuff, because she didn't know anything about it. He burst out laughing, and suddenly that was her mandate.
[6:31] Janice says she absolutely loved it. Jim McIntyre, who was RIMS's Washington Counsel, was a phenomenal mentor. He prepared her to testify, prepared her for meetings, and explained who she was going to meet and how it was going to work, and so on.
[6:53] Janice says, from there, I went into a few other responsibilities and ended up as the President.
[7:10] Janice started her career in 1980 at LaSalle Partners in real estate and financial services. There were 150 employees operating in six states. Because of Federal regulations regarding their pension work, they needed a full-time risk manager.
[7:35] The legislation said they needed a risk manager but didn't explain what the risk manager needed to do. Janice had been teaching high school, and she wanted to move into business.
[7:47] Janice interviewed through an employment agency with a variety of companies, and decided LaSalle Partners sounded interesting and it would be a good platform for her to get some experience and then move on.
[8:02] Thirty-eight years later, she was still there, and retiring. When she retired, there were 90,000 employees in 100 countries. Janice had 17 full-time staff, globally, working for her.
[8:20] Janice says LaSalle Partners started as a privately held company. Janice was one of the partners. It became a corporation and, after acquisitions, merged with Jones Lang Wootton, a UK real estate organization, and became Jones Lang LaSalle.
[9:17] Janice says her career was a wild ride. She says she never could have imagined the experiences she had, the friendships she made, and the things that she learned and had opportunities to do, through her company and through RIMS.
[9:36] Janice says she was able to draw links between the benefits of RIMS and the business of her business. When she went to board meetings, they asked how her RIMS work was going. She showed that being in leadership at RIMS helped her company to achieve its goals.
[10:27] Janice says, when she started at RIMS, there were the local chapters, and then there were industry groups. The real estate industry group was extremely active. It was populated by very experienced real estate risk managers. They served as mentors to anyone coming on.
[10:47] The group met not only during RIMS, but also in New York, in the fall, outside of the RIMS conference. Eventually, Jones Lang LaSalle supported the group's meetings and allowed them to use JLL buildings and support from technology to go forward.
[11:07] Janice says, when she was going to a RIMS conference, she asked the JLL Board if there was anything they wanted her to focus on when meeting up with risk managers of their clients and vendors.
[11:33] Over time, she didn't have to ask. They asked her, if you're going to your RIMS meeting, talk to this person. See if you can find out about this issue. There was connectivity between what Janice did at RIMS and supporting JLL.
[12:10] Justin asks what Janice taught in high school. It was English and French. She can still speak un petit peu of French. She enjoys opportunities to speak to people in French and ordering from French menus. As a teacher, she wanted something different and moved into business.
[12:42] Justin says that in over 400 RIMScast episodes, Janice might be the first guest who went from teaching and transitioned over to insurance. Janice says making lesson plans and executing them is good training for business.
[13:07] Janice says she learned how to explain things. She had to translate insurance into real estate speak for JLL. She had to take real estate speak and translate it into insurance speak for underwriters and brokers.
[13:22] Janice was comfortable speaking to groups because she had been speaking to unruly teenagers and getting them under control. Talking to a bunch of business people, who at least pretended to be interested, was a piece of cake. Janice says it was fun, and a good transition.
[13:55] Justin brings up Janice's time as the Director of Government Affairs for RIMS. She became chair of what is now known as the RIMS External Affairs Committee. Lance Ewing nudged her into the role in the late 1990s. Then the September 11 terrorist attacks happened.
[14:40] Janice says that one thing that's missing from most recollections is the immediate impact that the 9/11 terrorist attacks had. Before 9/11, there was the general perception that our borders were safe; there wasn't going to be an attack on U.S. soil.
[15:15] When we saw the towers burning, when the plane went down, when the Pentagon was hit, that illusion was shattered. There was fear. We didn't know if this was the first of an aerial attack. Janice was on the 70th floor of the Aon Building, so it was a real concern for her.
[15:40] Janice says, we didn't know if there was going to be an invasion or similar attacks around the country. To develop good risk management practices, the first thing you have to do is define the risk.
[15:53] Janice says, we couldn't define the risk. The only thing we could do immediately was respond to the situation. She was thinking more with her Jones Lang LaSalle hat than with her RIMS hat. The entire leadership and spouses were on the West Coast doing strategic planning.
[16:20] Janice says most of them operated in the Midwest and the East Coast. They had to get back, but there were no planes, no trains, and no transportation. They tried to get rental cars. So did everyone else in the world.
[16:50] When they couldn't get more rental cars, they went to a used car lot and bought vans, station wagons, and whatever they could find where couples could travel together to similar places. When they got to where they were going, they sold the cars. That's how they got back.
[17:15] Janice says, meanwhile, our technology folks were setting up hotlines: one hotline to figure out where people were. We had people traveling or on vacation. We didn't know where they were, and there was very limited communication. Phone lines and internet were down.
[17:45] We set up a hotline. Every employee was required to call in every day for a couple of weeks, identifying where they were, whether they needed help getting back to their home, and what other resources they might need. The hotline helped them to get those resources.
[18:06] The second hotline was for families. Families called that line if they were unable to reach their loved one. If the employee had called the hotline, JLL could tell the family where the employee was, how things were going, when they might get home, and take note of needs.
[18:26] Janice says that's what was happening on the home front, away from the immediate needs in each of these 9/11 sites. It was only after that that you could settle back and think strategically about what it meant on a broader basis, and that's when she put her RIMS hat on.
[18:49] Justin guesses that at the time, Jones Lang LaSalle had thousands of properties across the U.S., with millions of square feet. So there is the security risk at those buildings, as well. Janice agrees, absolutely.
[19:04] Janice says people focus on New York and D.C., but in Kansas, Nebraska, and all around the country, everyone was in shock and preparing for the worst.
[19:26] Janice says she remembers sitting on the 70th floor of the Aon Building, once they let everyone in, after a few days. There were windows all around, and her window looked out onto Lake Michigan, where all the military patrols were, over the lake.
[19:52] Janice clearly remembers many times over the next several weeks sitting there and suddenly seeing a black helicopter rise into view. She could see the pilot's face, and she waved. Then it would descend. She says it was reassuring but also scary.
[20:30] Justin asks about the hotlines. Janice says Jones Lang LaSalle did things collaboratively. If Technology was working on something, they brought in Risk, Legal, and HR, and they all sat down and figured it out. They were all a part of whatever strategy was needed.
[20:55] Janice was involved. She was an important member of the Security Team and the Safety Team, and was involved even in the aftermath, coming up with ways in which to strengthen and protect their buildings.
[21:08] People were worried about chemicals being thrown into the ventilation. So they came up with ways to protect that while still letting air into the buildings. What to do to allow people back in. All of those things had to be considered, for safety and for the practical effect on operations.
[21:33] A Quick Break! Many fantastic RIMS events are coming up in 2026. The 11th Annual Chicagoland Risk Forum will return to the Old Post Office on Thursday, September 24th, 2026. Visit ChicagolandRiskForum.org for more information.
[21:46] The RIMS Western Regional Conference will be held from October 4th through the 7th in Seattle, Washington. The agenda is live, and registration is open. Visit RIMSWesternRegional.com and the link in this episode's show notes for more information.
[22:02] Save the dates: October 18th through the 21st. In Quebec City, we will be hosting the 50th Annual RIMS Canada Conference. Booth sales are open, and sponsorship opportunities are still available. Visit RIMSCanadaConference.ca for more information.
[22:24] Also, remember to check out RIMS.org/Canada for our spinoff show, RIMScast Canada, with a new episode every month.
[22:32] The RIMS ERM Conference 2026 will be held on November 19th and 20th in Columbus, Ohio. Registration is open. Visit RIMS.org/ERM2026.
[22:46] We're already looking to RISKWORLD 2027, which will be held over four days in New Orleans, Louisiana, from April 18th through the 21st! RISKWORLD 2027 Registration is open to organizational, individual, and associate RIMS members.
[23:04] Get first access to the hotel block. Hotel reservations open on October 28th, ahead of public registration. Sitting this out is the real risk! The link to registration is in this episode's show notes.
[23:17] Let's Return to Our Interview with Former RIMS President Janice Ochenkowski!
[23:41] Janice says she needed to wear her RIMS hat almost immediately. She says everyone realized that there was "innocuous" language in all policies that said terrorist acts were covered.
[23:57] There were no limits, sublimits, or deductibles. It was standard coverage because no one expected it to be a real issue. Then it was. There was an immediate concern as they looked at what their total exposure was.
[24:14] There was the concern about what to do for new policies. There was a moratorium on policies, as there always is after a particular crisis. When they were reissued, that language was removed. That might not seem like a problem for organizations with no real risk.
[24:35] Janice says, in the risk management area, there were covenants in our client contracts, from language pulled from insurance policies, that now we couldn't satisfy that requirement. We were in violation of our contract.
[24:54] Janice says the more critical issues were loan agreements and mortgages. Lenders required terrorism insurance. They weren't going to take that out after 9/11. We were faced with a terrible conundrum. We were in violation of our loan agreements.
[25:16] Janice says nobody moved quickly to foreclose on any of those things, but it was hanging over our heads. Unsuccessful efforts to renegotiate were going on, all across the country. Congress was absolutely unwilling to become the Federal program for terrorism.
[25:39] Janice says Congress refused to consider it being another flood insurance program because that wasn't going too well. Insurers started trying to figure things out and made some limited amounts of coverage available.
[25:55] At one point, globally, there was $10 million of terrorism coverage available. $10 million didn't satisfy anybody's loan requirement. Ultimately, it went up to $25 million, but it was still a problem.
[26:24] Organizations like the Real Estate Round Table, RIMS, and other groups formed coalitions. Jim McIntyre was very helpful. He had contacts in all those groups. He inserted RIMS wherever he could.
[26:49] JLL saw the basic need for what Janice was doing at RIMS, so she had carte blanche to go to Washington whenever she needed to work on these matters. These groups were able to explain to Congressional aides and the business press what things meant, in plain English.
[27:33] Januce says, you tell them, this building goes into foreclosure, and the guy running the coffee shop doesn't have a job anymore. Development and construction totally stop. Nothing was being built. That impacts all the trades and unions, so they joined the coalition.
[27:57] Unions became activists because their members, who thought they had jobs starting over the next several months, were now sitting on their hands with nothing to do. Small businesses set up around the potential sites had nothing happening.
[28:18] Janice says there was a financial impact from that decision by insurers. It wasn't a faulty decision; they had shareholders.
[28:33] Ultimately, after long discussions and negotiations, Janice testified before the President's Working Group on Terrorism, and before Congress, and met with Congressional Aides who were working on various bills, and was able to assist in passing TRIA.
[28:58] TRIA wasn't perfect, but what it did was bring together the three major parties who had the most skin in that game and gave each of them a relative amount of financial responsibility in what happened.
[29:12] These parties were the policyholders, with huge deductibles; insurance companies, with caps and reasonable premium allocations for risks, and the Federal Government, which came in after tens of millions of dollars had been paid out and criteria were met.
[29:45] The Federal Government wasn't being capricious, or taking first-dollar risk, but was a backstop, so that there wouldn't be financial ruin and we wouldn't have a lot of bankruptcies. Imperfect as TRIA was, it solved a problem.
[30:06] Janice says there have been several reauthorizations, and it has been tweaked each time to meet the issues and criteria that had to be met. Justin asks about cyber and forms of terrorism that may not be physical acts of terrorism.
[30:31] Janice mentions the NBCR, for Nuclear, Biological, Chemical, and Radiological threats. It raised the issue, and there were risk management processes that were able to minimize those risks.
[30:49] One more Quick Break! RIMS, The Foundation for Risk ManagementTM, is dedicated to shaping the future of the profession. By making a contribution, you are strengthening the global risk management community and investing in the future of the industry.
[31:09] The Foundation also supports the Spencer Educational Foundation but has a different mission. The Foundation focuses on providing opportunities for those professionals who have already decided to enter risk management and are just getting started.
[31:23] You can learn more about the Foundation by visiting www.RIMS.org/FRM. 
While you're there, be sure to check out information about the Susan Meltzer Scholarship Fund, which was established to honor Ms. Meltzer, who was RIMS President in 1999 and 2000.
[31:42] Susan Meltzer was a cherished RIMS President and contributed so much to RIMS and the greater risk community. Learn more at RIMS.org/FRM.
[31:51] Let's Return to Our Interview with Former RIMS President Janice Ochenkowski.
[32:12] Janice says meeting with Congressional Aides and Policymakers on Capitol Hill was intimidating the first hundred times she did it. You're walking into these buildings that you've only seen photographs of. You're going into the offices.
[32:24] Jim McIntyre had explained to her that Congressional aides have a lot of power over the bills and the language in the bills. The Congresspeople they work for look to these aides to be their technical resource.
[32:42] While some people were angry that they couldn't meet with the principal; they were only going to meet with the staff, but you want to meet with the staff.
[32:57] The staff will take the time to sit down with language and work with you on it, and you'll have a better chance of impacting things by developing relationships with them. It worked very well. Some of the work Janice did with Jim before 9/11 really helped.
[33:22] There was some insurance legislation that was going on. Aides did not understand what it meant. Janice ran a lunch program for the aides and taught them the basics of insurance. She bought pizzas for them. Now, you can't do that because you can't buy them lunch.
[33:44] Janice says they were coming to learn. Many of them were thankful because it gave them an understanding of what people were talking about and why certain things mattered. We had built some groundwork before TRIA. It helped because I already knew some of the aides.
[34:00] There were already relationships. They were willing to sit down and talk with us. We were the voice of the insurance buyer. Previously, when insurance matters were discussed on the Hill, insurance companies and brokers were lobbying. This time, it was the voice of the buyer.
[34:29] Janice says, We were constituents. We represented industries and organizations that were in their respective districts. Our voice became an important voice, distinct from the insurance industry. It reinforced RIMS's importance and raised our visibility on the Hill.
[34:58] In 2004, Janice testified before a Senate Government Affairs Subcommittee on Insurance Brokerage Regulation regarding TRIA. Janice says, walking in, she was overcome with a sense of history. The panel was people she had seen on C-SPAN.
[35:26] Janice says she was terrified she would say something wrong, that it would come out backwards, and that she would embarrass RIMS, JLL, and herself. She was used to speaking in public, but this was just different. It all went well in the end.
[35:55] Janice says she had a prepared statement. Then there were five-minute questions and answers. Janice says there is a clock counting down, and when it gets to one minute, it starts flashing. She says it was a little unnerving and she stuttered a few times.
[36:33] Janice says they interrupt your five minutes with questions, so your time is less. You're supposed to summarize what your position is and what you're testifying for. When you're on a panel, it's not the same as when they're conducting a hearing, accusing you of wrongdoing.
[37:02] Janice says the Congress Members are trying to get information and a few sound bites to send home. It's not antagonistic. They're not trying to trip you up on anything. Once you become accustomed to it, the next time is a little easier, because you're relaxed.
[37:29] In 2006, Janice appeared before the House Subcommittee on Financial Services about Insurance Modernization. Janice says it was a topic that she had a lot of comfort in speaking about. She wasn't quite as nervous about getting the facts mixed up or totally blanking.
[38:05] Janice says she was part of a panel of five or six people. It's for an hour or so. They might pause if somebody has to take a call.
[38:36] Janice became RIMS President soon after.
[38:52] In 2012, Janice returned to Capitol Hill for a hearing before the Subcommittee on Insurance, Housing, and Community Opportunity of the Committee on Financial Services in the U.S. House of Representatives.
[39:08] Janice says she always spoke in RIMS's capacity. JLL did not do any lobbying. JLL joins groups, like the Real Estate Round Table, RIMS, and other groups that represent their interests.
[39:36] Janice says that for the 2012 visit she had a greater comfort level. It was on an issue she was comfortable with: broker compensation. It was easier to discuss. She still had the same anxieties about being in Congress, in that room, with all the history, speaking to icons.
[40:23] Justin says that TRIA was eventually passed. It's been reauthorized a couple of times. It has made a difference for companies and for society, at large. Janice says it raised RIMS's profile in the eyes of the others who were participating and testifying.
[40:46] Janice says RIMS got a lot of press. The Wall Street Journal and the business press, in addition to insurance publications, presented information about RIMS. On a corporate level, when Janice's name was printed in association with JLL, clients asked about it.
[41:18] Janice says, with things like TRIA, or general insurance questions, clients would go to their risk managers and ask them to contact me to get information. This delighted JLL because it was a closer client relationship. JLL had an initiative to provide specialist experts for clients.
[42:23] Janice says if you go before Congress, the most important thing is to do your homework. Even if you're comfortable with public speaking, don't expect you can ad-lib to a Committee. Prepare, prepare, prepare, and understand the pros and cons. Practice with potential questions.
[43:06] Janice practices loudly to learn what word combinations she stumbles over. Then she removes them from her presentation. She says when you're more prepared, you're more self-confident. That makes you a better presenter. Justin says, also, rehearse in different places.
[44:29] Janice takes a somewhat formal draft and then "Janicizes" it. She writes it in a way that's more conversational, as she would speak, rather than reading something formally. That makes you more comfortable, so you're a better presenter.
[45:22] Janice says it seems that everybody knows when it's time to pass the baton to the next generation. She loved what she did, and she did it well; she was open to new ideas, but she was standing in the way of the next generation of leaders moving forward. She didn't want to do that.
[45:55] Janice says that people with new ideas, generational ideas, who could relate to what's coming up, need to be allowed to move forward.
[46:12] Janice says, think about what's happening in Washington. People need to move aside to let a new generation of leaders come in. Otherwise, you're missing that energy and enthusiasm of a new group of leaders. That's life. You move away and let the new guy in.
[47:05] Webinars: On September 17th, AXA XL returns to present the session, "Beyond the Loss Count: What Property Claims Reveal About Frequency, Severity, and Resilience."
[47:16] On October 1st, Brown and Brown will make their RIMS Webinar debut with "The Future of Captives: What Risk Managers Should Think About Now."
[47:26] On October 8th, Global Risk Consultants will present "The 2027 Risk Agenda: 10 Engineering Priorities Risk Leaders Should Act on Now."
[47:35] On October 15th, Verisk Maplecroft will lead the session, "Beyond the Horizon: Turning External Risk Into Decision-Ready Insight."
[47:44] On October 22nd, Zurich will present "Cybercrime, Fraud and AI: Real-World Threats and Practical Defenses for Business Leaders."
[47:53] Origami Risk will return on October 29th with a topic that will be announced soon.
[47:58] On November 5th, Riskonnect returns to deliver the session, "Signal Over Noise: Smarter Risk Analytics."
[48:05] RIMS Certification Week will be held from September 21st through the 25th. All three webinars are complimentary for all and are available through the Webinars Page on RIMS.org/Webinars.
[48:21] Let's Conclude Our Interview with Former RIMS President Janice Ochenkowski!
[48:34] Justin says Janice became RIMS President during the housing and mortgage crisis of 2007-2008. Janice says it's something risk managers need to think about. When there is a crisis, you don't step away from it; you step into it. You show leadership. 
[49:17] Janice says she was able to help resolve something that was one of the most critical issues at that time. At the beginning, the financial crisis focused on AIG and its vulnerability to bankruptcy, and what that meant to the entire insurance industry.
[49:47] Janice says it was really difficult because AIG was a major insurer for almost every large corporation in the U.S. and globally. Suddenly, senior board members were wondering if their claims in process would be paid. Will AIG go bankrupt, and what will happen to those claims?
[50:15] They wondered if they should cancel their policies mid-term and underwrite with someone else, and if so, who? What will the financial impact of that be? Boards were coming to risk managers with those questions. Janice had those questions herself.
[50:35] Janice says we were totally unprepared to answer them. We didn't have any more information than you were reading in The Wall Street Journal. Janice and the phenomenal RIMS staff put together a series of podcasts, the first of which was in three weeks.
[50:59] Janice says they got sponsors and speakers. They contacted experts in various areas and senior executives at the major insurers, including AIG, and insurance brokerages. They were willing to sit and talk to their clients and to be shown as thought leaders in the area.
[51:20] Janice says at the time there were 1,000 talking heads saying what should be done, but there were very few facts. You can't form a good risk management response to anything until you have facts; until you have data you can rely on and move forward with.
[51:50] Janice says RIMS strove to provide facts. When they did the podcasts, they did not only invite RIMS members. They sent invitations to the C-Suites of major corporations. They told The Wall Street Journal and other business publications they were running these podcasts.
[52:06] There was a series of podcasts. People tuned in. They were interested. RIMS established credibility with the information they provided. RIMS gave them tools and told them what to think about and consider, and what the ramifications could be, and let them decide for themselves.
[52:55] Janice says that it seemed to be a popular series, and it raised RIMS's profile within the general business community and the C-Suite, even in areas that didn't have dedicated risk managers who reported to the C-Suite. It was one of the most important things RIMS did.
[53:25] Janice says, then they went to Congress and talked to them about solvency and more. Also, Janice says they kept in touch with Congressional staff between meetings. The key to relationships on the Hill is meeting with aides. Many move from one Congressperson to another.
[53:49] You keep up the relationships, and that gives your organization credibility. You're there consistently. Once an aide called and asked her to help define risk management for a piece of legislation. They had no real idea. She helped them craft something reasonable but not onerous.
[55:14] Justin brings up the RIMS Annual Legislative Summit. They have a presence on Capitol Hill every year. It's a two-day or two-and-a-half-day event, so members who attend can get onboarded, know their talking points, and know the issues. Janice elaborates on preparation.
[56:15] Janice says the Legislative Summit brought a lot of people from local RIMS chapters into the External Affairs Committee. That was a good pipeline.
[56:31] Justin says his experience in 2018, for the reauthorization of the National Flood Insurance Program, was everything Janice mentioned. There was a small card with talking points, there was a rehearsal, coaching from professional lobbyists, and industry leadership.
[57:10] Justin says it was a great experience. They met with aides, brought maps, and showed flood zones. They had the talking points down, and it was effective. It was one of the best experiences he could have had as a new RIMS staff member. It was excellent.
[57:59] Justin remarks that Janice was the right person for the job. Her experience at Jones Lang LaSalle was terrific. Janice was a lifer. She retired in 2018, after 38 years.
[58:46] Janice says risk management has certain basic things, but you have to evolve with the times. You can't resist change; you have to look at change as an opportunity.
[59:00] If you're a smart risk manager, you're going to lean your company into that opportunity. Janice says, when people were working in her generation of RIMS, it wasn't unusual to spend a career at one or two companies. There was stability. You didn't need to leave to be promoted.
[59:26] Janice became a Partner. When they were incorporated, she became an officer. When she ended her career, she was an Executive Vice President and part of the Global Operating Team, which set strategies for all JLL businesses. They reported directly to the Board.
[59:51] Janice says risk management had a fairly high profile. New risk officers may not have that opportunity because the business world is demanding that you move every three to five years to get promoted.
[1:00:23] Janice says whatever works for you and your organization and helps you move forward is what your personal strategy needs to be. Janice says, not only those who died in the towers, in the Pentagon, and in the field, but those who walked away with scars, visible and invisible.
[1:00:40] Justin takes a moment to address and honor everyone who lost their lives during the 9/11/2001 terrorist attacks, on its 25th anniversary.
[1:01:04] Janice speaks of the first responders and volunteers who rushed in to help and walked away with lifelong consequences from the materials that they inhaled.
[1:01:19] Janice says, We just need to spend a few minutes on 9/12 remembering them and making sure that the relevance and their sacrifices are noted.
[1:01:36] Janice, you've given us so much inspiration, and told us what it took for you to be an effective RIMS President. To anyone thinking about pursuing a leadership role at RIMS, starting out now, what advantages do they have to position them for success as a RIMS leader?
[1:02:06] Janice says, the most important benefit that exists today, that didn't when I was starting, is technology. Today we do Zoom calls. Getting together and communicating was much more onerous.
[1:02:23] It wasn't as easy to get people from across the country together and work collaboratively. We can do that easily now. People are taking advantage of that. They're using social media to spread ideas.
[1:02:41] Janice says her generation struggled with social media. She did it because that's what she had to do. You can't stagnate. You've got to move with the changes as they come and figure out how to use those changes to move yourself forward.
[1:02:58] What will technology and AI mean to risk management? What will they mean to RIMS? How is RIMS going to use AI? How is RIMS leadership going to use AI to promote what the important basics of risk management are and can be? Those are things you have to consider.
[1:03:18] In order to be an effective leader at RIMS, you have to get the absolute support of your organization. You've got to connect those dots. You've got to show how and why your leadership at RIMS is going to benefit your company.
[1:03:42] Telling your leadership you're going to a conference is not going to convince them that there's anything important going on.
[1:03:56] The way to convince them is to tell them there's a conference. These are the sessions that they're going to have. This is the speaker they will have. That speaker is someone I think will tell me information about how to address this issue.
[1:04:13] This session is about an issue that we faced last year. I want to go and see how others are doing with it. The next step is to come back and write a note telling leaders what you learned in that session. Ask, Can I meet with you to talk about these things I think we can implement?
[1:04:42] You're showing that you're taking the information you're learning and using it to improve risk management in your company, and more importantly, the business of the business you are working in.
[1:05:00] When Janice was President, she would visit a chapter and ask everybody who's in the insurance industry to raise their hands. They would raise their hands. Then she told them, no, you use the products of the insurance industry, but you are your company's representative.
[1:05:51] Janice Ochenkowski, thank you so much for all your time and your insight today. It's such a pleasure to meet you face-to-face, and I hope we get to do that in person at a future RIMS event.
[1:06:06] Special thanks again to former RIMS President Janice Ochenkowski for joining us here on RIMScast! This was a lot of fun, and there are plenty of great takeaways about TRIA, RIMS, public speaking, and honoring the victims of the 9/11/2001 terrorist attacks.
[1:05:26] It was a real pleasure to meet Janice Ochenkowski, one of our most revered leaders.
[1:06:30] Plug Time! Become a RIMS member and get access to the tools, thought leadership, and network you need to succeed. Visit RIMS.org/membership or email membershipdept@RIMS.org for more information.
[1:06:48] Risk Knowledge is the RIMS searchable content library that provides relevant information for today's risk professionals. Materials include RIMS executive reports, survey findings, contributed articles, industry research, benchmarking data, and more.
[1:07:04] For the best reporting on the profession of risk management, read Risk Management Magazine at RMMagazine.com. It is written and published by the best minds in risk management.
[1:07:17] Justin Smulison is the Business Content Manager at RIMS. Please remember to subscribe to RIMScast on your favorite podcasting app. You can email us at Content@RIMS.org.
[1:07:29] Practice good risk management, stay safe, and thank you again for your continued support!
 
Links:
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Upcoming RIMS-CRMP Virtual Workshops:
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See the full calendar of RIMS Virtual Workshops
 
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RIMS.org/Webinars
"RIMS Student Series: Classroom to Career Part 2" | Sept 9 | Complimentary for all
"Beyond the Loss Count: What Property Claims Reveal About Frequency, Severity and Resilience" | Sponsored by AXA XL | Sept. 17, 2026
"RIMS Certification Week: Sept. 22‒24" | Complimentary for All
"The Future of Captives: What Risk Managers Should Be Thinking About Now" | Sponsored by Brown & Brown | Oct. 1, 2026
"The 2027 Risk Agenda: 10 Engineering Priorities Risk Leaders Should Act on Now" | Sponsored by Global Risk Consultants | Oct. 8, 2026
"Beyond the Horizon: Turning External Risk Into Decision-Ready Insight" | Sponsored by Verisk Maplecroft | Oct. 15, 2026
"Cybercrime, Fraud and AI: Real-World Threats and Practical Defenses for Business Leaders" | Sponsored by Zurich | Oct. 22, 2026
"Signal Over Noise: Smarter Risk Analytics" | Sponsored by Riskonnect | Nov. 5, 2026
 
Related RIMScast Episodes:
"Opening Windows of Tolerance with Sophie Grégoire Trudeau"
"When Geopolitics Hits the Balance Sheet with Cari Stinebower"
"RIMS Advocacy in 2026 with Mark Prysock"
 
Sponsored RIMScast Episodes:
"48 Hours From a Storm: What to Do Before A Hurricane Strikes" | Sponsored by Global Risk Consultants, a TÜV SÜD Company (New!)
"AI-Scale, Risk Ready: Engineering Controls for the New Data Center Boom" | Sponsored by Global Risk Consultants, a TÜV SÜD Company
"Facing Into Risk: Navigating the New Risk Landscape" (New!) | Sponsored by AXA XL
"Secondary Perils, Major Risks: The New Face of Weather-Related Challenges" | Sponsored by AXA XL
"The ART of Risk: Rethinking Risk Through Insight, Design, and Innovation" | Sponsored by Alliant
"Mastering ERM: Leveraging Internal and External Risk Factors" | Sponsored by Diligent
"Cyberrisk: Preparing Beyond 2025" | Sponsored by Alliant
"The New Reality of Risk Engineering: From Code Compliance to Resilience" | Sponsored by AXA XL
"Change Management: AI's Role in Loss Control and Property Insurance" | Sponsored by Global Risk Consultants, a TÜV SÜD Company
Demystifying Multinational Fronting Insurance Programs | Sponsored by Zurich
"Understanding Third-Party Litigation Funding" | Sponsored by Zurich
"What Risk Managers Can Learn From School Shootings" | Sponsored by Merrill Herzog
"Simplifying the Challenges of OSHA Recordkeeping" | Sponsored by Medcor
"How Insurance Builds Resilience Against an Active Assailant Attack" | Sponsored by Merrill Herzog
"Third-Party and Cyber Risk Management Tips" | Sponsored by Alliant
 
RIMS Publications, Content, and Links:
RIMS Membership — Whether you are a new member or need to transition, be a part of the global risk management community!
RIMS Virtual Workshops
On-Demand Webinars
RIMS-Certified Risk Management Professional (RIMS-CRMP)
RISK PAC | RIMS Advocacy
RIMS Strategic & Enterprise Risk Center
RIMS-CRMP Stories — Featuring RIMS President Manny Padilla!
 
RIMS Events, Education, and Services:
RIMS Risk Maturity Model®
 
Sponsor RIMScast: Contact sales@rims.org or pd@rims.org for more information.
 
Want to Learn More?
Keep up with the podcast on RIMS.org, and listen on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.
 
Have a question or suggestion? Email: Content@rims.org.
 
Join the Conversation!
Follow @RIMSorg on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn.
 
About our guest:
Janice Ochenkowski, Former RIMS President
 
Special introduction by RIMS CEO Gary LaBranche
 
Production and engineering provided by Podfly.

Welcome to RIMScast. Your host is Justin Smulison, Business Content Manager at RIMS, the Risk and Insurance Management Society.
 
In this episode, Justin interviews Lawanda "Elle Michell" Hall about working with Spencer Educational Foundation. They discuss experiences outside the classroom, including mentoring, conferences, and responsible communication with industry professionals. They discuss the importance of participating actively in conferences, not just sitting there. Lawanda shares some of the gaps she sees between students' preparation and the readiness employers will expect from them. She explains how coaching can prepare them for entering the risk management workplace. Lawanda encourages RIMS chapters to give the mic to students so they can understand the importance of their voice.

Listen for wisdom on listening without judgment and communicating responsibly.
 
Key Takeaways:
[:01] About RIMS and RIMScast.
[:16] About this episode of RIMScast. Our guest is Lawanda "Elle Michell" Hall. She is a risk management student mentor. She is going to talk about how she is helping to guide the next generation of risk management professionals. But first…
[:45] RIMS-CRMP! RIMS Certification Week will be held from September 21st through the 25th. A link to the week's events is on this episode's show notes, including three free webinars. The week is a global celebration of the RIMS Certified Risk Management Professional certification.
[1:02] It is a virtual event for you to learn about the certification, how it can strengthen your career and organization, and understand how the RIMS-CRMP is helping shape the future of risk management. A link to Certification Week is in the show notes, or find it at RIMS.org/Webinars.
[1:20] On September 9th, the Classroom to Career series concludes. Join experienced risk professionals for an engaging discussion about what it's like to build a career in the field of risk management. This session is complimentary for members and nonmembers.
[1:38] Webinars: On September 17th, AXA XL returns to present the session, "Beyond the Loss Count: What Property Claims Reveal About Frequency, Severity, and Resilience."
[1:49] On October 1st, Brown and Brown will make their RIMS Webinar debut with "The Future of Captives: What Risk Managers Should Think About Now."
[2:00] Global Risk Consultants will return on October 8th. Their topic will be announced soon.
[2:06] On October 15th, Verisk Maplecroft will lead the session, "Beyond the Horizon: Turning External Risk Into Decision-Ready Insight."
[2:15] Origami Risk will return on October 29th with a topic that will be announced soon.
[2:20] On November 5th, Riskonnect returns to deliver the session, "Signal Over Noise: Smarter Risk Analytics." Visit RIMS.org/Webinars to register.
[2:30] RIMS is back on YouTube. Our handle is @RIMSOfficialChannel. We've got plenty of videos there, including RIMScast, RIMScast Canada video podcasts, and other informative and entertaining content from RIMS. Subscribe to the channel today!
[2:48] The Spencer Educational Foundation's Funding Their Future Gala will be held on September 17th at the newly renovated Waldorf Astoria in New York City. Visit SpencerEd.org and the link in this episode's show notes. 
[3:05] On with the Show! I mentioned Spencer just now because one of our favorite Risk Managers on Campus is rejoining us here on RIMScast. I'm talking about Lawanda "Elle Michell" Hall. She is the CEO of Intelligent Intentions.
[3:21] We will talk about the habits, mindsets, and professional skills that are consistently distinguishing students who are making lasting impressions on recruiters and hiring managers, from those who need to sharpen their skills.
[3:34] Also, some of the trends she is seeing among risk students, habits that they need to develop, and some that they need to break. We're going to have a lot of fun! Let's get to it!
[3:44] Interview! Lawanda "Elle Michell" Hall, welcome back to RIMScast!
[4:09] Lawanda says students preparing for a risk career need a menu of options. The next step would be aligning their appetite to the options, having the courage to create something that may not be on the menu, and having the courage to ask for off-menu options.
[4:31] Lawanda says, as we navigate this industry, emerging technologies, and emerging risks, wrapping our minds around companies that don't exist yet and may come to exist, students look to the future, understanding that sometimes the options are not yet on the menu.
[4:57] Lawanda encourages them to keep an open mind, keep a creative posture, and have the courage to ask, what are they not seeing on the menu that could also be an option, or how they can co-create an option aligned with their interests but also what the industry needs from them.
[5:45] Lawanda and Justin agree that it is a heavy lift for students. Lawanda says students nowadays have such a broad reference that we didn't have, and that puts them in the position to be more creative and thoughtful about the future.
[5:57] Lawanda says, tech change is happening much more rapidly for students than it did for us. That gives them a different posture for looking into the future. There's new technology every year. Lawanda says, we didn't replace our cell phones every year. We didn't have cell phones.
[6:21] When we got cell phones, we weren't replacing them every year. Now, students are almost expected to update their technology annually. That's indicative of how they feel about the future, changes, and evolution. They have an accelerated understanding of the possibility of change. 
[6:40] Lawanda says social media plays into it, where everybody has the latest and the greatest, and they think that they need to have the most updated thing. Lawanda says she gets anxious every time there's an update. Will she have to figure it out all over again? Chances are, yes.
[7:43] Lawanda says students embrace that change. They look forward to it, and they expect it. That gives them a different mindset around forward thinking.
[8:05] For experiential learning, Lawanda recommends coaching, attending conferences, and making sure students understand responsible communication with industry professionals. If you're not responsible and thoughtful about how you communicate, it can backfire.
[8:24] Lawanda says she coaches students before conferences. She helps them understand how to maximize that moment, and not just be sitting there or standing there like a wallflower. She wants them to maximize the moment in whatever way they can.
[8:43] Lawanda does coaching. She makes sure they attend conferences, not just the big ones, but also local events that are hosted by professional organizations, including RIMS. Students need coaching, conferences, and responsible communication with industry professionals.
[9:18] Justin comments that attending a large conference and speaking to people takes a certain degree of confidence. Justin asks if being in school during COVID prevented young people from picking up social cues and networking cues.
[10:00] Lawanda thinks that young people's social connections were declining before COVID due to social media. Students aren't communicating with each other. They text or use social media as armor to make them feel more comfortable and confident in their communication. 
[10:22] Face-to-face interaction is awkward because they don't practice it amongst themselves or amongst the community. Lawanda says COVID amplified it, but it wasn't the beginning or the cause of it.
[10:38] Social media continues to create that challenge because students are comfortable on their phones and engaging in that space. When students show up, the confidence and courage don't translate from social media to the real world.
[11:01] Lawanda says students need to understand social etiquette and multi-generational communication and connection, the things we were taught because we didn't have a phone: you have to make eye contact, speak up so people can hear you; things we take for granted.
[12:11] Lawanda says she's very curious. She is intrigued by students, and she listens to them. She wants to hear what they have to say. She doesn't have to agree. She doesn't sit in a place of judgment or offense. If you don't listen to them, they are not willing to listen to you.
[12:46] From listening to students, Lawanda gains an understanding of their language so she can use their language to talk to them. It also shows her where their deficiencies are, so she can fill those gaps and help them understand how to take the next step toward their objectives.
[13:19] A Quick Break! Many fantastic RIMS events are coming up in 2026. The 11th Annual Chicagoland Risk Forum will return to the Old Post Office on Thursday, September 24th, 2026. Visit ChicagolandRiskForum.org for more information.
[13:34] The RIMS Western Regional Conference will be held from October 4th through the 7th in Seattle, Washington. The agenda is live, and registration is open. Visit RIMSWesternRegional.com and the link in this episode's show notes for more information.
[13:51] Save the dates: October 18th through the 21st. In Quebec City, we will be hosting the 50th Annual RIMS Canada Conference. Booth sales are open, and sponsorship opportunities are still available. Visit RIMSCanadaConference.ca for more information.
[14:08] Also, remember to check out RIMS.org/Canada for our spinoff show, RIMScast Canada, hosted by National Conference Committee Chair, Aaron Lukoni.
[14:19] The RIMS ERM Conference 2026 will be held on November 19th and 20th in Columbus, Ohio. Registration is open. Visit RIMS.org/ERM2026.
[14:32] We're already looking to RISKWORLD 2027, which will be held over four days in New Orleans, Louisiana, from April 18th through the 21st!
[14:42] RIMS members can exclusively register by September 4th for the best rate. And get first access to the hotel block. Hotel reservations open on October 28th, ahead of public registration. Sitting this out is the real risk! The link to registration is in this episode's show notes.
[15:02] Let's Return to Our Interview with Lawanda Hall!
[15:19] When Lawanda works with students, she starts with the end in mind. What are their objectives? What are they trying to accomplish? This generation is very focused on getting things done. They're go-getters. Impact and results are what propel them.
[15:37] They may be stopped, like any human being, by not having the confidence or by fear of what people will think. Lawanda starts with the end in mind by focusing on getting it done. She coaches them through the process and gives them the benefit of her perspective.
[15:53] Lawanda reminds them that everybody they talk to are human beings, too. They're imperfect human beings. She tells them, they're here to listen to you because you have a perspective they're interested in. It's going to work out. It's a conversation. You're not on trial.
[16:14] Just think about the objective and keep it in mind to push through.
[16:49] Lawanda says students want immediate impact, as far as the next step or thing, and instant feedback, but not necessarily instant completion. If they have a big goal, or big things to accomplish, it's not going to happen in a moment.
[17:09] They want instant feedback. They don't want to be told they will figure it out later. Do they follow up? They want to know that this step is complete to get ready to go to the next step. Lawanda says that is realistic, and it accelerates what they're trying to accomplish. 
[17:36] Justin says that his daughter zones out over context when she asks for help with her homework. She just wants the instant answer. That's the future workforce of the industry.
[18:23] Lawanda says the students don't value context as much as earlier generations. Our responsibility as a generation is to help them learn how to think. Critical thinking is a dying art. Lawanda challenges them on how to think things through.
[18:42] If they ask a question, Lawanda may ask them another question to help them think through it, and walk them through the thinking process, versus just giving them an answer. Also, she may use a reference that they have in their world.
[19:03] Lawanda has godchildren who are young enough to keep her fresh with what's popular. Lawanda likes to use a reference that's familiar to students, to pull them into the thinking game; thinking through a process. Just asking and getting the answer is not transformative.
[19:36] Justin says we don't want them always asking their phones for the answers. Lawanda says that flattens their thinking. It's important that we call them up to be critical thinkers.
[19:50] One More Quick Break! The Spencer Educational Foundation's Funding Their Future Gala 2026 will be held on September 17th in New York City at the Waldorf Astoria. This year's honorees are two of our recent guests, Sierra Signorelli of Zurich and Marya Propis of RT Specialty.
[20:14] A link to the Gala is in this episode's show notes.
[20:18] The Spencer Educational Foundation's Internship Grant applications opened on August 15th and will close on October 15th. A link to the Internship Grants page is in this episode's show notes. Visit SpencerEd.org for more information.
[20:39] Let's Conclude Our Interview with Lawanda Hall!
[21:16] Lawanda says there is a communication gap between generations. That's not new. Every generation has that gap of understanding, based on where they sit. The socio-emotional gap is new and growing, created partly by the helicopter parenting, everybody-gets-a-trophy approach.
[21:42] Lawanda says people who are entering the workforce are looking to work and contribute to make a living. People who are hiring are looking for that, too. They're looking for a good work ethic. The disconnect is in the how. The work they do hasn't changed as much as how they do it.
[22:09] Lawanda has heard of people bringing their parents to work to advocate on their behalf because they don't have the courage to have the conversation with their boss. She has heard of this generation bringing their parents into interviews, because they're not sure what to do.
[22:50] Lawanda leans into her curiosity and asks, How did we get here? Why are students not courageous enough or able to do these things on their own in their early 20s? She has questions of parents and questions of students, and the educational institutions? What are we not doing?
[23:21] Lawanda says we have co-created this. We can't just put it on the students. They didn't raise themselves. They're not in a silo. We have to look at the entire environment and ask, Who contributed, how, and why?
[23:40] Lawanda continues, Why are we here where we don't have adults who have the courage to show up in the way that they have in generations past? Justin displays his shock at the scenario. Lawanda doesn't know if the parents volunteer or if the students ask them to go.
[24:39] Lawanda wants to examine that construct and ask what's going on here. Parents have gone from coaching to coddling. Lawanda says that's a big contributor to students' inability to sit as an adult with other adults, have courageous conversations, and show up with confidence.
[25:08] Lawanda says if she had asked one of her parents to go to an interview with her, they would have laughed and told her she was crazy. They would not have entertained that. Why are parents doing it? These children did not raise themselves.
[25:24] Lawanda says coaching is very important. When she coaches students for an hour, she can see the shift in their understanding. They're getting information, agency, and authority over their being that they didn't have before she talked to them.
[25:40] Lawanda says, for some reason, there are parents who are not handing over agency and authority to students at the time that they need to, so you have 25- and 30-year-old teenagers who don't understand how to adult in the workforce. That is a big disconnect.
[26:05] Lawanda says students are smart and capable of doing the work. How they show up for work, and the socio-emotional disconnect, is one of the biggest challenges for this generation of students and employees. It feels like babysitting. A business is not a day-care.
[26:29] Lawanda says, you want them to come in, do work, and contribute, without having to feel like you need a whole team of Social Workers in HR to make sure that employees are OK. That's counterproductive and antithetical to adulting and what you expect from an adult.
[27:35] Lawanda says judgment and criticism create more distance. Our goal is not to create more distance, but to close the gap, embrace them, bring them forward, and call them up into their power, into their authority, and hand over the agency to them, so that they understand.
[27:48] It's not that they can't do it. They haven't been given permission to do it. They lack social opportunities in their everyday life, the things we took for granted, like going outside and playing kickball and hanging out with other kids.
[28:06] You learn so much in that space. Your confidence grows, your courage grows, your problem-solving skills, and your thinking skills; all these things are taking place. These students aren't getting that.
[28:17] They're in their room on their phones, scrolling, hearing opinions, giving opinions, being judged, judging, and not socializing. Justin says, it's all noise; it's not constructive. There's a difference between controlled chaos and chaos. Justin will not sit in on his kid's job interviews.
[28:40] Lawanda says it starts before job interviews. At some point, you hand over the agency and say, you handle that on your own and then come back and tell me how it worked out. If you need me to come, I will, but you do it first, and let's see how it works out.
[29:27] In restaurants, Justin makes sure that his children deal with the server. They hear and speak, and they know what they want. He doesn't speak for them.
[29:43] Lawanda says that when you speak for your children forever, you never hand them their agency. You teach them that their voice is not valuable, that their voice doesn't matter, and that they don't have to think or speak up for themselves. That's not healthy evolution.
[30:40] Lawanda says Spencer Educational Foundation is amazing. They do more than write checks. They embrace experiences for students. They give them opportunities to engage in industry exposure. They are great at holding folks accountable for how they spend the money.
[31:08] Spencer Educational Foundation makes sure their dollars have wings, that evolution and growth are happening, and whatever the intention is for the money, that it is happening within the organizations and institutions they support.
[31:26] Lawanda says this creates accountability and an environment of respect, generation after generation. Lawanda is happy to be part of the Spencer family. She also encourages others to be part of the Spencer family.
[31:51] Lawanda says Spencer Educational Foundation is a place that operates with amazing integrity; she knows it will be around for a long time, just based on how they do business; not just what they do, but also how they do it.
[32:07] Lawanda says, Spencer Educational Foundation is a beautiful investment of not just dollars, but also understanding, and a beautiful culture of accountability.
[32:24] Lawanda is in Atlanta, Georgia. Justin mentions that RIMS has a very active chapter in Atlanta. Justin asks Lawanda what she would hope every RIMS chapter listening today would do to better support students and strengthen the next generation of risk professionals, 
[32:48] Lawanda says, it's simple, but it's a big impact: Give the mic to the students. Lawanda has been in RIMS since she was in college. One thing the Atlanta chapter did was to have a session where students would do a case study on a topic and present it to the professionals.
[33:12] Lawanda says every year, students had an opportunity to present their case study. When Lawanda was in school, they presented on TRIA because it was new. The professionals wanted to know more about it, so the students worked with professors to understand it and prepare it.
[34:01] Lawanda says, We were able to present that to them and add value to their experiences, and also add a tremendous amount of confidence that encouraged the students to know they were valuable to the professionals, and the professionals were valuable to the students.
[34:14] Lawanda says we have to be open to allowing ourselves to learn from the students and value their voice. When we value their voice, it calls them to understand the importance of their voice and having agency over their voice. That's one thing chapters can do to help students.
[34:54] Justin is glad Lawanda brought up the Terrorism Risk Insurance Act (TRIA), because next week's guest is former RIMS President Janice Ochenkowski, who was instrumental in helping Congress understand the importance of TRIA in its earliest stages.
[35:08] Next week we are going to commemorate the 25th anniversary of the September 11th  terrorist attacks, here on RIMScast with her.
[35:22] Lawanda says in 25 years, she went from being mentored to being a mentor; Impact does not come in a one-size-fits-all package. You can have impact in a five-minute conversation and give them the opportunity to learn from your missteps or your mistakes in the industry.
[35:50] You can have a longer relationship as a mentor, where you do check-ins and touchpoints, and kind of coach and cultivate, and help someone to understand what their possibilities are in different segments of their career.
[36:08] Lawanda says she has understood that just because things are packaged a certain way doesn't mean that's the only packaging it can exist in. Micromentoring is valuable because not everyone has the capacity to take on a mentor for a year or six months.
[36:34] Lawanda says if you encounter somebody, and spend three to five minutes with them, and give them the benefit of a lesson that you've learned, it can be a seed that will blossom beautifully along the way. Understand that impact exists in a variety of packages.
[36:56] Justin says, It has been such a delight to see you! I hope to see you again at RISKWORLD 2027 in New Orleans. Lawanda says she loves New Orleans and looks forward to being in that space for some good, productive meetings, and some really good food.
[37:24] Lawanda, we appreciate all you do for our next generation of risk professionals. Your affiliation with Spencer is always valued. I look forward to seeing you in April!
[37:50] Special thanks again to Lawanda Hall for joining us here on RIMScast! A link to her prior RIMScast appearance is in this episode's show notes. She is one of our esteemed Risk Managers on Campus through the Spencer Educational Foundation's program.
[38:05] The deadline for the Spencer Educational Foundation's Risk Manager on Campus Grant has passed, but I've put up a link so you can plan for 2027.
[38:13] Plug Time! Become a RIMS member and get access to the tools, thought leadership, and network you need to succeed. Visit RIMS.org/membership or email membershipdept@RIMS.org for more information.
[38:31] Risk Knowledge is the RIMS searchable content library that provides relevant information for today's risk professionals. Materials include RIMS executive reports, survey findings, contributed articles, industry research, benchmarking data, and more.
[38:47] For the best reporting on the profession of risk management, read Risk Management Magazine at RMMagazine.com. It is written and published by the best minds in risk management.
[39:01] Justin Smulison is the Business Content Manager at RIMS. Please remember to subscribe to RIMScast on your favorite podcasting app. You can email us at Content@RIMS.org.
[39:13] Practice good risk management, stay safe, and thank you again for your continued support!
 
Links:
"RIMS Student Series: Classroom to Career Part 1" | Sept 1 | Complimentary for all
"RIMS Student Series: Classroom to Career Part 2" | Sept 9 | Complimentary for all
Spencer Educational Foundation's 2026 Funding Their Future Gala | Sept. 17, 2026
ChicagoLand Risk Forum | Sept. 24, 2026
RIMS Certification Week: Sept. 21‒24 | Complimentary For All
RIMS Western Regional Conference — Oct. 4‒7, 2026 | Seattle, WA | Register Today.
RIMS Canada Conference — Oct. 18‒21, 2026 | Quebec City | www.rimscanadaconference.ca | Sponsorship Opportunities Available
RIMS ERM Conference 2026 | November 19‒20 in Columbus, Ohio | Registration Now Open! | www.rims.org/ERM2026 |
RISKWORLD 2027 Registration | RIMS members can lock in 2026 rates now through Sept. 4
RIMScast Canada — Episodes Now Live — Watch the new video with Sophie Grégoire Trudeau.
The Strategic and Enterprise Risk Center
RIMS, the Foundation for Risk Management
Spencer Educational Foundation — Scholarships and Grants | Open Calls and Timelines.
RIMS Now
RIMS-Certified Risk Management Professional (RIMS-CRMP) | Insights Video Series Featuring Joe Milan!
RIMS Diversity Equity Inclusion Council
RIMS-CRMP Stories
RISK PAC | RIMS Advocacy
RIMScast on YouTube!
RIMS Risk Management Magazine | Contribute | Q2 2026 Issue Now Available
Sponsor RIMScast — Sales@RIMS.org
Lawanda "Elle Michell" Hall — Intelligent Intentions

Upcoming RIMS-CRMP Virtual Workshops:
Full RIMS-CRMP Prep Course Schedule
See the full calendar of RIMS Virtual Workshops
 
Upcoming RIMS Webinars:
RIMS.org/Webinars
"Beyond the Loss Count: What Property Claims Reveal About Frequency, Severity and Resilience" | Sponsored by AXA XL | Sept. 17, 2026
RIMS Certification Week: Sept. 22-24 | Complimentary For All
"The Future of Captives: What Risk Managers Should Be Thinking About Now" | Sponsored by Brown & Brown | Oct. 1, 2026
"Beyond the Horizon: Turning External Risk Into Decision-Ready Insight" | Sponsored by Verisk Maplecroft | Oct. 15, 2026
"Signal Over Noise: Smarter Risk Analytics" | Sponsored by Riskonnect | Nov. 5, 2026
 
Related RIMScast Episodes:
"Opening Windows of Tolerance with Sophie Grégoire Trudeau"
"Choosing the Challenge with Johnell Holly"
"A Menu of Risk Options with Elle Michell Hall" (2023)
 
Sponsored RIMScast Episodes:
"48 Hours From a Storm: What to Do Before a Hurricane Strikes" | Sponsored by Global Risk Consultants, a TÜV SÜD Company (New!)
"AI-Scale, Risk Ready: Engineering Controls for the New Data Center Boom" | Sponsored by Global Risk Consultants, a TÜV SÜD Company
"Facing Into Risk: Navigating the New Risk Landscape" (New!) | Sponsored by AXA XL
"Secondary Perils, Major Risks: The New Face of Weather-Related Challenges" | Sponsored by AXA XL
"The ART of Risk: Rethinking Risk Through Insight, Design, and Innovation" | Sponsored by Alliant
"Mastering ERM: Leveraging Internal and External Risk Factors" | Sponsored by Diligent
"Cyberrisk: Preparing Beyond 2025" | Sponsored by Alliant
"The New Reality of Risk Engineering: From Code Compliance to Resilience" | Sponsored by AXA XL
"Change Management: AI's Role in Loss Control and Property Insurance" | Sponsored by Global Risk Consultants, a TÜV SÜD Company
"Demystifying Multinational Fronting Insurance Programs" | Sponsored by Zurich
"Understanding Third-Party Litigation Funding" | Sponsored by Zurich
"What Risk Managers Can Learn From School Shootings" | Sponsored by Merrill Herzog
"Simplifying the Challenges of OSHA Recordkeeping" | Sponsored by Medcor
"How Insurance Builds Resilience Against an Active Assailant Attack" | Sponsored by Merrill Herzog
"Third-Party and Cyber Risk Management Tips" | Sponsored by Alliant
 
RIMS Publications, Content, and Links:
RIMS Membership — Whether you are a new member or need to transition, be a part of the global risk management community!
RIMS Virtual Workshops
On-Demand Webinars
RIMS-Certified Risk Management Professional (RIMS-CRMP)
RISK PAC | RIMS Advocacy
RIMS Strategic & Enterprise Risk Center
RIMS-CRMP Stories — Featuring RIMS President Manny Padilla!
 
RIMS Events, Education, and Services:
RIMS Risk Maturity Model®
 
Sponsor RIMScast: Contact sales@rims.org or pd@rims.org for more information.
 
Want to Learn More?
Keep up with the podcast on RIMS.org, and listen on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.
 
Have a question or suggestion? Email: Content@rims.org.
 
Join the Conversation!
Follow @RIMSorg on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn.
 
About our guest:
Lawanda "Elle Michell" Hall, CEO, Intelligent Intentions
Risk Manager on Campus
 
Production and engineering provided by Podfly.

Welcome to RIMScast. Your host is Justin Smulison, Business Content Manager at RIMS, the Risk and Insurance Management Society.
 
In this episode, Justin interviews Cari Stinebower about sanctions as an enterprise risk management issue. They discuss the holistic view of the maritime space and enterprise risk. They cover aspects of the Terrorism Risk Insurance Act (TRIA) and how insurance companies, brokers, and reinsurers work with the U.S. Government to mitigate terrorism risk.
 
Listen for advice on keeping your organization compliant with respect to sanctions and terrorism risk.
 
Key Takeaways:
[:01] About RIMS and RIMScast.
[:16] About this episode of RIMScast. We will discuss geopolitical risk, sanctions, and TRIA with Cari Stinebower, a partner in the Washington, D.C. office of Steptoe. But first…
[:42] RIMS-CRMP Virtual Workshops. RIMS will partner with PARIMA for the RIMS-CRMP on September 1st and 2nd for a two-day virtual workshop. Registration links are in this episode's show notes.
[:55] Also on the webinars page, you will see a two-part series hosted by the RIMS Membership Department. The "Classroom to Career" webinar series highlights how RIMS equips students with the knowledge, skills, and connections needed to thrive in risk management careers.
[1:10] Participants will gain insights into industry trends, career pathways, and practical tools that help them confidently step into the evolving world of risk management after graduation. These sessions will be hosted on September 1st and 9th.
[1:24] These sessions are member exclusives and are complimentary for RIMS members, of course. So, if you are interested in becoming a member, this would be the time. Visit RIMS.org/membership.
[1:34] Webinars: On September 17th, AXA XL returns to present the session, "Beyond the Loss Count: What Property Claims Reveal About Frequency, Severity, and Resilience."
[1:46] On October 1st, Brown and Brown will make their RIMS Webinar debut with "The Future of Captives: What Risk Managers Should Think About Now." Visit RIMS.org/Webinars to register.
[1:59] RIMS is back on YouTube. Our handle is @RIMSOfficialChannel. We've got plenty of videos there, including RIMScast, RIMScast Canada video podcasts, and other informative and entertaining content from RIMS. Subscribe to the channel today!
[2:17] On with the Show! Our guest today is Cari Stinebower. She is a partner at Steptoe in Washington, D.C., and a former U.S. Department of the Treasury and Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC) Attorney-Adviser.
[2:32] Cari focuses her practice on regulatory risk where U.S. National Security and Foreign Policy objectives intersect with cross-border business.
[2:39] We will talk about fraud, money laundering detection, and cybersecurity, and how this can be connected to the Terrorism Risk Insurance Act (TRIA).
[2:50] We'll also talk about how international sanctions can impact any organization, and why risk managers should be strategizing now, if they haven't already. There is so much to discuss!  Let's get to it!
[3:04] Interview! Cari Stinebower, welcome to RIMScast!
[3:24] Cari says she was at OFAC at an interesting time. She came in after a Hill job doing the campaign finance cleanup for the Democrats for three years, from 1996 to 1999.
[3:38] Cari says that OFAC sank their teeth into anti-money laundering and the detection of fraud and corruption. When Cari joined Treasury as an analyst within OFAC, they slotted her into a position focused on counter-narcotics work, and also on the Milošević tribunal.
[4:03] Cari says there was lots of work to do and not enough staff to do it. Everyone ot OFAC had then, and still has, multiple portfolios. Cari was splitting between Milošević and counter-narcotics work.
[4:20] Cari says she spent a lot of time in Colombia working with banks and the Colombian government on anti-money laundering, focused on the cartels. The drug dealers were very sophisticated and were spectacular at establishing front companies and money laundering.
[4:54] Cari says it was a very good lesson for what was to come through the counter-terrorism work. The Colombian narcotics traffickers and their front companies were light-years ahead on money laundering techniques and sanctions evasion.
[5:44] Cari says in Colombia, at that time, the narcotics traffickers were excellent businessmen. It was such a lucrative career that they had to find ways to wash the cash. They were buying agricultural businesses, tourism businesses, pharmacies; anything they could to launder cash.
[6:18] Cari says they could have been fabulous businessmen if they had gone legitimate. She says some of them tried.
[6:32] Cari says 9/11 happened, so the world changed overnight. Cari switched from a counter-narcotics focus to a counter-terrorism focus.
[6:44] They started chasing the money. Who was the source of the funds? Where was it going? Which financial institutions were involved? Were they doing it knowingly? Were they being used by governments? Were they being used by "charities"? How is it flowing?
[7:03] Cari says that became her focus at OFAC for the next five years after 0/11, before she hopped into the private sector.
[7:39] Justin asks about sanctions against nations. Cari says the old way Treasury used to do sanctions was by jurisdiction. A jurisdiction would be identified as prohibited, off-limits for U.S persons, meaning individuals and entities.
[8:01] Any funds, transactions, or contracts that came into the possession or control of the U.S. person or entity would, by operation of law, be blocked or frozen; the title remained with the sanctioned party, but the U.S. person or entity had to freeze it and report it to the Treasury.
[6:26] The original sanctions on Iran were jurisdictional, based on the government, based on persons located within the jurisdiction of Iran. The Department of the Treasury was aggressive in pursuing enforcement actions.
[8:44] Financial institutions were sanctioned with multi-million-dollar penalties. The world started to voluntarily comply. It was U.S. driven initially, but European financial institutions and some of the Emirati financial institutions got on board and complied with the sanctions.
[9:20] The Departments of the Treasury and Justice used a clause within the underlying statute for the Iran sanctions that allowed penalties to be imposed on non-U.S. financial institutions that were causing a U.S. bank to process transactions on behalf of the sanctioned party.
[9:43] That was the line of the European banking cases that came out. Cari says banks were penalized from 2005 through 2015, which pretty much swept in everyone.
[9:56] That was the modern buildout of the compliance program where the U.S. established it was applying its sanctions requirements not only to U.S. persons but to non-US. persons where they could also identify a nexus.
[10:12] The favorite nexus was the use of U.S. dollars through the clearing system. Sanctions exploded. It was identifying ways to reach non-U.S. parties through the use of dollars, servers located in the U.S., call centers, approvals, or whatever they could, as a hook to get U.S. nexus.
[10:51] Justin asks about sanctions against Russia, Iran, and North Korea. Cari says North Korea has sort of fallen off. There's a big focus on North Korea's use of forced labor. They've also been active in cyberspace and ransomware.
[11:20] Cari says we don't see North Korea as often as we see Iran, Russia, and, to a certain degree, Cuba. It depends on the administration. For a while, Venezuela was really hot, from an anti-corruption, anti-money-laundering perspective, rather than a sanctioned invasion.
[11:46] Justin speaks of the latest AML bill, passed in 2023. Cari says the big overhaul was under the Patriot Act, which updated and modernized the Bank Secrecy Act. It also updated and modernized the International Emergency Economic Powers Act (IEEPA), OPEC's big statute.
[12:09] Cari says there have been updates since. When you hear M&A partners or private equity guys talking, they often refer back to the Patriot Act. The Patriot Act becomes this overarching term for updates to the AML laws and regulations.
[12:48] Cari says there has been a growing evolution of the anti-corruption, anti-bribery statutes, the anti-money-laundering statutes, the sanctions world, and the adjacents like the whistleblower protections and the Terrorism Risk Insurance Act.
[13:09] Cari says all of these components are part of this growing collective focus on upgrading U.S. Government abilities to protect against threats to national security and the economy.
[13:32] Justin says risk managers are accustomed to thinking about operational and financial risks, but sanctions can feel like a legal issue. Part of the problem is you may have a legal officer who is not a risk manager or a risk manager who is not a legal officer.
[13:48] Justin asks, When should sanctions become an Enterprise Risk Management issue? Cari says, looking at OFAC's enforcement actions, sanctions should always be an Enterprise Risk Management focus.
[14:04] It's very easy for the bad guys to take advantage of a business if it's siloed. The easiest way to detect a problem, whether it's financial sanctions evasion or exposure to corruption, is if the enterprise is looking holistically at its business, its counterparties, and its transactions.
[14:26] Cari says, when we're working with clients on building a global compliance policy or procedure, we keep telling them that it's better to have a holistic view of the business, customers, and geography.
[14:43] Not only geographic risk, customer risk, or service risk, but also across the regulatory schemes. If you have sanctions exposure somewhere in your enterprise, you're also likely going to have an anti-money-laundering issue, a corruption issue, and/or an export controls issue. 
[15:06] Cari says when you're building out compliance, you want to have a 1,000-foot view of the business units, your customers, your geographies, and the regulatory components, so that you can take advantage of what you may be seeing in one area. It's silos that cause the problems.
[15:26] A Quick Break! Many fantastic RIMS events are coming up in 2026. The 11th Annual Chicagoland Risk Forum will return to the Old Post Office on Thursday, September 24th, 2026. Visit ChicagolandRiskForum.org for more information.
[15:42] The RIMS Western Regional Conference will be held from October 4th through the 7th in Seattle, Washington. The agenda is live, and registration is open. Visit RIMSWesternRegional.com and the link in this episode's show notes for more information.
[15:59] Save the dates: October 18th through the 21st. In Quebec City, we will be hosting the 50th Annual RIMS Canada Conference. Booth sales are open, and sponsorship opportunities are still available. Visit RIMSCanadaConference.ca for more information.
[16:16] Also, remember to check out RIMS.org/Canada for our spinoff show, RIMScast Canada, hosted by National Conference Committee Chair, Aaron Lukoni.
[16:27] The RIMS ERM Conference 2026 will be held on November 19th and 20th in Columbus, Ohio. Registration is open. Visit RIMS.org/ERM2026.
[16:40] We're already looking to RISKWORLD 2027, which will be held over four days in New Orleans, Louisiana, from April 18th through the 21st!
[16:50] RIMS members can exclusively register by September 4th for the best rate. And get first access to the hotel block. Hotel reservations open on October 28th, ahead of public registration. Sitting this out is the real risk! The link to registration is in this episode's show notes.
[17:10] Let's Return to Our Interview with Cari Stinebower!
[17:26] Cari says an example of sanctions risk is Iranian oil or Venezuelan oil. Typically, the pattern is you have a Greek shipment manager under charter to deliver oil and gas to China. 
The Bill of Lading says the cargo is of Omani origin or Malaysian blend.
[18:08] It looks clean. They have all the sanctions exclusions language in the Charter Agreement; the insurers, the reinsurers, and the P&I quotes have all established that the vessel cannot carry Iranian cargo. The documents say it's Omani or Malaysian, and off you go.
[18:28] Then you get a call from the U.S. State Department or the Treasury Department saying you've got Iranian cargo on board. The U.S. Government typically knows that because they're using satellite tracking software. They know that the cargo was loaded by ship-to-ship transfer.
[18:58] If you go back through the satellite imagery, you can see that it's happened probably two or three times, and when the vessel called on the Omani port that was supposed to be the source of the cargo, it came in at the same draft as it left. Calling on the port was clearly a ruse.
[19:34] When you get to the financial payments, that's where you have the money laundering side, and you can see that the Omani seller of the cargo is just a front company with a brand new website, secretly run by the Revolutionary Guard.
[19:56] Cari says that when we start talking about the compliance policies and procedures, it's not good enough just to rely on the Bill of Lading. The expectation is that you're going to be doing something a little deeper.
[20:11] In 2019, the Department of Justice started to pursue a lot of ship owners and ship managers for carrying Iranian cargo. Sometimes it was Iranian cargo going to Venezuela or going to China.
[20:32] In a decent batch of those cases, the ship owners or ship managers would be contacted by the U.S. Government and agree that the Government was right and ask what they could do not to get sanctioned.
[20:51] Cari says there were a series of cases where the ships were brought to the U.S. and the cargo was sold by the U.S. Government, with the proceeds going to the Victims of Terrorism Fund, for parties who registered with the Special Master and were entitled to a pro rata share.
[21:20] That was the U.S. Government's solution to what to do with all this cargo that they can seize, and they had been seizing, under the Foreign Terrorist Organization Statute. We're now seeing the same focus on the narcotics trafficking cartels in Mexico, Brazil, and Venezuela.
[21:46] Cari says, You see the evolution of the U.S. Government's thinking over the years, how the Iranian oil cases are now relevant to countering narcotics trafficking caused by the cartels in South America.
[22:00] Justin asks about supply chain risk and sanctions-related risks companies may overlook when they evaluate suppliers. Cari says the supply chain, particularly when you're dealing with raw materials or manufacturers coming out of China, has been an issue for a long time.
[22:29] Cari says it's not difficult for a U.S. importer who's bringing in parts and components for widgets to know that their manufacturer or warehouse in China is who they say they are. That's easy enough.
[22:48] Where we see issues is when the Chinese manufacturer subcontracts to second or third parties, who ostensibly are also compliant, but it becomes difficult in a more opaque jurisdiction like China to do the tracing down to the actual mine or source of the raw materials.
[23:14] That leads up to the Uyghur Forced Labor Prevention Act (UFLPA), which has forced companies to look at supply chains where there's a Chinese component, for several years.
[23:31] Where are the raw materials coming from? Do you know where all of the raw materials are coming from, or do you just know where some are? Under the UFLPA, companies were particularly focused on identifying those risks in China.
[23:50] Cari says, under the first Trump Administration, and under the Biden Administration, you started to see a lot of companies moving away from sole-sourcing goods from China, specifically because of that risk.
[24:02] The National Drug Control Strategy Report that came out in May 2026 is digging deep into supply chain issues.
[24:13] It says two things: first, that the U.S. Government needs to act as a whole. The Departments of Justice, Treasury, and Homeland Security need to work together on tackling supply chain issues and addressing where the gaps are.
[24:35] Supply chains are being exploited, not only by narcotics traffickers, but across the board.
[24:41] The report is also telling businesses that it's not enough to have an OFAC sanctions compliance program where you screen your counterparties against the SDN list.
[24:54] There's an expectation for businesses to go deeper, using analytics and AI, looking at their records, and knowing who the suppliers of their suppliers are.
[25:17] The expectation is for businesses to step up their game, but also for the U.S. Government to partner with businesses to figure out how to do that.
[25:35] Cari says we've also been telling other jurisdictions, like those in the Caribbean and South America, that this is a really good opportunity.
[26:44] The first Trump Administration, the Biden Administration, and the second Trump Administration have said to stop sole-sourcing in China. Let's near-shore and friend-shore, and let's bring business and infrastructure back to the Western Hemisphere.
[26:00] Cari says we're starting to see jurisdictions offer tax incentives for setting up manufacturing spaces, or finding ways to invest in the United States to bring back manufacturing.
[26:14] Cari says the big issue of late has been how to bring shipbuilding back to the United States. Is there a way to do it in Latin America without relying on China as the major shipyard? [26:29] Those issues are interesting because they trigger a series of other questions: cost of labor, sourcing raw materials, and more. It's a longer-term problem. If you're building out your supply chain nose-to-tail, it's going to require a more transparent jurisdiction than China.
[26:52] One more Quick Break! RIMS, The Foundation for Risk ManagementTM, is dedicated to shaping the future of the profession. By making a contribution, you are strengthening the global risk management community and investing in the future of the industry.
[27:11] The Foundation also supports the Spencer Educational Foundation but has a different mission. The Foundation focuses on providing opportunities for those professionals who have already decided to enter risk management and are just getting started.
[27:26] You can learn more about the Foundation by visiting www.RIMS.org/FRM. 
While you're there, be sure to check out information about the Susan Meltzer Scholarship Fund, which was established to honor Ms. Meltzer, who was RIMS President in 1999 and 2000.
[27:44] Susan Meltzer was a cherished RIMS President and contributed so much to RIMS and the greater risk community. Learn more at RIMS.org/FRM.
[27:53] Let's return to our interview with Cari Stinebower!
[28:14] Justin asks if other countries sanction the United States or U.S. companies. Cari says it has become a new trend. The jurisdictions doing it are China, with the National Security Law; Russia, identifying Hostile Jurisdictions that have imposed sanctions against Russia.
[29:12] Cari says it's a quid pro quo. Ukraine has a sanctions program against entities that do business with Russia. Canada and Europe are well-known for their Blocking Statutes.
[29:48] They have Antidote Sanctions that prohibit their nationals from complying with the U.S.'s Cuba Sanctions. Those jurisdictions see the U.S. sanctions on Cuba as territorial. There is a quid pro quo.
[30:08] Sometimes it triggers conflict-of-law issues, and companies have to decide how and when they're going to comply with which set of sanctions.
[30:46] Cari says, if you don't have a holistic view of which jurisdictions you're operating in, and where your U.S. nationals are located, there's no way to build out a robust, comprehensive sanctions program.
[31:01] If you have a U.S. person located in or in a business position in Canada, you wouldn't want them dealing with the Canadian company's Cuba business. You need to know where they are located in advance so you can protect the U.S. person.
[31:27] Justin notes that RIMS is a global society. Canada is the second-largest RIMS membership base.
[31:40] Justin says there's so much due diligence to be done. You have to vet the company you're going to be doing business with and do your second- and third-tier supply chain risk management deep dive to make sure that everything is above board.
[32:02] Cari says there are many examples where the Canadian Government has aggressively stepped up its sanctions components. The Canadian sanctions on Russian targets may be more aggressive than the U.S. or EU sanctions on Russia.
[32:19] If you have a financial institution or insurance company based in Canada, but operating in the U.S. and the EU, because they're complying with the Canadian sanctions, they're blocking transactions that a U.S. party wouldn't have to block.
[32:44] You want to know what the entire web of sanctions regulations is before you figure out who your business parties are and how you're going to navigate something.
[32:55] Justin surmises that a small company without a dedicated risk professional would need to reach out to a company like Steptoe. Cari agrees; a lot of people will use a law firm and a consultant to build out their compliance programs or to do the risk analysis.
[33:13] Cari says, then they will either find someone in-house or outsource it to a consultant or a specialist to keep costs down.
[33:23]  Cari says, we also see this pop up in Mergers & Acquisitions. One of the things that is often difficult is that they will see the compliance function either as redundant or as a cost center, and not as a profit center.
[33:47] The guidance is always: Don't save costs by getting rid of your Compliance function, because it will cost you money in the long run. But often, that is what you will see.
[34:00] Justin brings up the Terrorism Risk Insurance Act (TRIA), a legislative priority for RIMS. RIMS sends an External Affairs Team to Capitol Hill every year to talk about TRIA with their Representatives in Congress.
[34:19] Justin says RIMS helped lead the charge, over 20 years ago, to get TRIA passed into law.
[34:30] The nature of terrorism risk has evolved since TRIA's enactment. Justin asks how risk managers should be thinking about terrorism exposure today, compared to when the program was established.
[34:44] Cari says terrorism, like the narcotics traffickers, evolves. It's cash-intensive. There's more you can do now through technology, AI, cybersecurity, and cryptocurrency.
[35:01] You can sit completely offshore and wreak havoc on the electrical grid or a utilities provider, or a financial institution, through cyberattacks or cybercrimes. It can be crippling if terrorists go after the grid.
[35:28] Cari says we have seen an overlap between what could be a terrorist attack and what is more likely a ransomware grab, when they're going after smaller utilities located somewhere in the Midwest. That seems to be a trend.
[35:45] They're not always sophisticated. You don't always know who the counterparties are. Going back to the Drug Control Strategy report, the Government is saying that there has to be a holistic approach to ransomware and cyberattacks.
[36:03] A couple of years ago, the FBI and Homeland Security set up a task force to work with the utilities or other U.S. businesses that see themselves faced with a ransomware attack that is either just for the money or is something more nefarious.
[36:24] Cari says, if the question is, is it terrorism or is it something else, but the way you would attack it would be the same if you're the utilities manager; it doesn't matter if it's terrorism or cybercrime.
[36:48] You've got to work with law enforcement to protect your infrastructure, to figure out whether you're going to pay the ransom or not, so that you can protect your customers' data.
[37:02] It's up to the Government to figure out who the illicit party was. Is it a hacker group sitting in Russia? Is it a terrorist group? Why were they doing it, and how do you stop it from happening in the future?
[37:18] If you're the Business Manager or the Compliance Officer, you need to build in your risks, your risk mitigation strategies, redundancies, and backup servers that are not connected. The problem for you isn't: Is this a hacker or a terrorist doing this to me?
[37:53] Cari says there are many insurance working groups. We've worked with clients, some of these groups, and the U.S. Government to come up with language that makes sense. We see it in the context of Iran or Russia, or with respect to language for War Risk in the Strait of Hormuz.
[38:32] Cari says, The partnership between the insurers, reinsurers, brokers, and Government is pretty deep.
[38:41] These working groups have been around for a long time because insurers, brokers, and reinsurers need buy-in from the Government to get assurances that the language they're putting out there is enough to get them out of trouble if they're acting in good faith.
[39:00] Generally, everyone is, but you want that nod from the Government that what you've done is sufficient from the Government's perspective.
[39:37] Cari's advice to risk professionals in August 2026: The most important thing is that the risk professionals and the business units know and trust each other.
[39:47] Cari continues: A risk professional isn't going to be able to build out a compliance program that works unless they know what the business units are up to and what the business priorities are, and they have the trust of the business professionals.
[40:05] Some critics warn that you don't want the compliance person to become a captive of the business units, driven by profit rather than compliance. Cari says the business compliance person needs the business unit and the compliance unit to work hand in glove. She explains it.
[40:46] Cari says we've seen this a lot with all of these businesses jumping into the Venezuela market. There's a lot of business upside but also a lot of risk. It may not be that there's a sanctions risk, but the longer-term risks are the money-laundering and corruption risks.
[41:26] Cari asks what happens ten years from now? If you're a compliance officer, you need to understand the upside to the business, which is lots of profit, but when you're drafting contracts and working with the business unit, how are you mitigating the risk that's five or 10 years out?
[41:44] Cari says the only way you do that is if the compliance and business units have a certain amount of trust and respect for each other.
[41:57] Cari says the Compliance Officer is not always the Risk Manager. Some businesses will have it siloed; some will have someone embedded. In some cases, there's no compliance person. They throw it onto a legal officer, and the legal officer can be spread fairly thin.
[42:13] Cari says you can work through trade associations to understand industry risk. You can hire consultants. You can hire law firms. The benchmarking is incredibly important to understand not only the opportunity but also the appropriate risk.
[42:49] Justin says this has been one of the most informative RIMScasts we've had in a while. I'm so glad we got a chance to tackle this topic. Cari, thank you so much for joining us here on RIMScast!
[42:45] Special thanks again to Cari Stinebower of Steptoe for joining us here on RIMScast! A link to her LinkedIn profile is in this episode's show notes.
[42:58] I have links on this episode's show notes to other RIMS coverage on sanctions, geopolitical tensions, and related supply chain risk. Also visit RMMagazine.com.
[43:08] Plug Time! Become a RIMS member and get access to the tools, thought leadership, and network you need to succeed. Visit RIMS.org/membership or email membershipdept@RIMS.org for more information.
[43:26] Risk Knowledge is the RIMS searchable content library that provides relevant information for today's risk professionals. Materials include RIMS executive reports, survey findings, contributed articles, industry research, benchmarking data, and more.
[43:42] For the best reporting on the profession of risk management, read Risk Management Magazine at RMMagazine.com. It is written and published by the best minds in risk management.
[43:56] Justin Smulison is the Business Content Manager at RIMS. Please remember to subscribe to RIMScast on your favorite podcasting app. You can email us at Content@RIMS.org.
[44:08] Practice good risk management, stay safe, and thank you again for your continued support!
 
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About our guest:
Cari Stinebower, Partner, Steptoe
 
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