Work For Humans

Most organizations are built around hierarchy, clear reporting lines, and top-down control. But a growing number are experimenting with a different way of organizing work through self-management, distributed authority, and evolving purpose. As more organizations experiment with alternatives to traditional management, Matthew Spaur has spent years studying Teal organizations and what actually happens when hierarchy gives way to self-management.

In this episode, Dart and Matthew discuss what Teal really is, how self-managing organizations operate, and whether these post-bureaucratic management models are delivering on their promise.

Matthew Spaur is a marketing consultant, author, and researcher who studies self-managing organizations and emerging models of work. He is a co-author of the annual Teal Landscape Report, which tracks organizations experimenting with post-bureaucratic management.
In this episode, Dart and Matthew discuss:
- Beyond bureaucracy
- What Teal organizations really are
- Predict and control vs. sense and respond
- Roles instead of job descriptions
- Leadership without traditional bosses
- Bringing your whole self to work
- Organizations with an evolving purpose
- Are these models actually working?
- AI and the future of management
- And other topics…

Matthew Spaur is a marketing consultant, author, and researcher focused on emerging models of organization and management. He is a co-author of the annual Teal Landscape Report, a global study of organizations experimenting with self-management and other post-bureaucratic management practices. Through his consulting work, Matthew helps organizations communicate their ideas, adapt to change, and rethink how work is organized.

Resources Mentioned:
Reinventing Organizations, by Frederic Laloux: https://www.amazon.com/Reinventing-Organizations-Creating-Inspired-Consciousness/dp/2960133501
Holacracy: The New Management System for a Rapidly Changing World, by Brian J. Robertson: https://www.amazon.com/Holacracy-Management-System-Rapidly-Changing/dp/162779428X

Connect with Matthew:
Official website: https://matthewspaur.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthewspaur/
Work with Dart:
Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

Twenty years ago, Abraham Burickson and his collaborators asked a simple question: what if a work of art were designed for just one person? Instead of creating experiences for the masses, they spent months crafting deeply personal journeys for an audience of one. That experiment grew into a new way of thinking about design, participation, and transformation.

In this revisited episode, Dart and Abraham discuss what those lessons can teach us about management, why experience cannot be fully designed, and how organizations can become platforms for people to create meaning together.

Abraham Burickson is an author, speaker, and experience designer who has spent more than two decades exploring how designed experiences can transform people. He is the co-founder and Artistic Director of Odyssey Works and the author of Experience Design: A Participatory Manifesto.

In this episode, Dart and Abraham discuss:
- How to create a transformative experience for a single individual
- Can managers be experience designers?
- Why experience is not designable
- How to implement experience design at work
- Baking experiences within static products
- Designing for transformation
- Work as a shared experience
- The origin story and myths of organizations
- And other topics…

Abraham Burickson is an author, experience designer, and artist who has spent more than two decades exploring how design shapes human experience. He is the co-founder and Artistic Director of Odyssey Works, where he creates immersive performances for audiences of one, and co-directs the Experience Design Certificate Program. Trained in architecture at Cornell University, his work spans art, design, education, and consulting. He is the author of Experience Design: A Participatory Manifesto and co-author of Odyssey Works: Transformative Experiences for an Audience of One.

Resources mentioned:
Experience Design, by Abraham Burickson: https://www.amazon.com/Experience-Design-Participatory-Abraham-Burickson/dp/0300269471
Odyssey Works, by Abraham Burickson: https://www.amazon.com/Odyssey-Works-Transformative-Experiences-Audience/dp/1616895152
The Anatomy of Genres, by John Truby: https://www.amazon.com/Anatomy-Genres-Story-Forms-Explain/dp/0374539227

Connect with Abraham:
https://www.abrahamburickson.com/
https://www.owprograms.com/
Work with Dart:
Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

Rishad Tobaccowala has spent much of his career breaking out of boxes. First it was the spreadsheet and the idea that organizations can be managed through numbers alone. Then it was the office and the assumptions built into how we supervise and coordinate work. More recently, he has turned his attention to the broader structures that shape how we work and learn. In this episode, Dart and Rishad discuss the limits of measurement, management as a zone of control versus a zone of influence, and why the future may not fit inside the containers we inherited from the past.

In this episode, Dart and Rishad discuss:
- The containers that shape our thinking
- Why spreadsheets can blind us
- When measurement becomes the mission
- Talent without opportunity
- The office as a management tool
- Control versus influence
- Why companies become zoos
- What CEOs say about AI
- Why people resist transformation
- Choosing with our hearts, not our heads
- And other topics…

Rishad Tobaccowala is an author, advisor, speaker, and teacher focused on helping people and organizations thrive in times of change. He is the author of Rethinking Work and Restoring the Soul of Business: Staying Human in the Age of Data. Rishad spent nearly four decades at Publicis Groupe, where he served as Global Chief Strategist and Chief Growth Officer. Today he advises leaders around the world on leadership, innovation, technology, and the future of work. He also writes The Future Does Not Fit in the Containers of the Past, a newsletter on change and reinvention.

Resources Mentioned:
Rishad’s Book, Rethinking Work: https://www.amazon.com/Rethinking-Work-Seismic-Changes-Where/dp/1400249309
Rishad’s Book, Restoring the Soul of Business: Staying Human in the Age of Data: https://www.amazon.com/Restoring-Soul-Business-Staying-Human/dp/1400210542
Rishad’s Newsletter, The Future Does Not Fit in the Containers of the Past: https://rishad.substack.com/

Connect with Rishad:
Official website: https://rishadtobaccowala.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rishadtobaccowala/
Twitter/X: https://x.com/rishad
Work with Dart:
Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

After years leading recruiting and talent systems at companies like Bridgewater, Electronic Arts, and Dolby, Jeff Hunter came to believe that many of our assumptions about talent, hiring, and performance are fundamentally wrong. The problem is not that people lack potential. The problem is that the systems around them often fail to recognize or develop it. In this revisited episode, Dart and Jeff discuss what gets in the way of human potential and what organizations can do differently.

Prior to founding Talentism, Jeff served as Head of Recruiting at Bridgewater Associates and held leadership roles at Electronic Arts and Dolby. His work has focused on designing and scaling systems that help people learn, grow, and perform at their best.

In this episode, Dart and Jeff discuss:
- What limits human potential
- Why talent matters more than capital
- The hidden flaws in hiring
- Why skills can be misleading
- What Bridgewater taught Jeff
- The problem with managing people
- How systems shape behavior
- Why context changes everything
- The challenge of hiring for values
- What great organizations do differently
- And other topics…

Jeff Hunter is founder and CEO of Talentism, a company that helps leaders build organizations that unlock human potential. Previously, he served as Head of Recruiting at Bridgewater Associates and held senior talent leadership roles in the technology industry. His work focuses on helping organizations design systems that enable people to learn, grow, and perform at their best.

Connect with Jeff:
Website: www.talentism.com 
Work with Dart:
Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

Many of the problems we care most about cannot be solved by a single organization. That insight helped John Kania develop Collective Impact, a framework for bringing people together around shared goals. But over time, Kania noticed that coordination alone was not enough. Even when groups made progress, the deeper patterns of the system often remained unchanged. In this episode, Dart and John discuss the evolution of systems change thinking and why lasting change requires more than alignment, strategy, and good intentions.

John Kania is Executive Director of Collective Change Lab, a nonprofit that develops new approaches to collaboration and systems change. He is a leading thinker on collective impact, systems leadership, and the relational work of creating social change.

In this episode, Dart and John discuss:
- Problems no one can solve alone
- Why good intentions often fail
- The limits of coordination
- What keeps systems stuck
- The hidden power of mental models
- Why relationships drive change
- The challenge of sharing power
- What leadership looks like in uncertainty
- The role of healing in systems change
- Why changing systems means changing ourselves
- Building islands of coherence
- And other topics…

John Kania is Executive Director of Collective Change Lab, a nonprofit focused on advancing transformational systems change practices. He previously served as Global Managing Director of FSG, where he helped develop and popularize the concept of collective impact. John is co-author of the influential Stanford Social Innovation Review articles Collective Impact, The Dawn of System Leadership, and The Relational Work of Systems Change, as well as The Water of Systems Change. His work focuses on helping people and organizations collaborate across boundaries to address complex social challenges.

Resources Mentioned:
Collective Impact, by John Kania, Mark Kramer, and Peter Senge: https://ssir.org/articles/entry/collective_impact
The Dawn of System Leadership, by John Kania, Mark Kramer, and Peter Senge: https://ssir.org/articles/entry/the_dawn_of_system_leadership
The Relational Work of Systems Change, by John Kania, Jennifer Splansky Juster, and Peter Senge: https://ssir.org/articles/entry/the_relational_work_of_systems_change
The Water of Systems Change, by David Peter Stroh, John Kania, Mark Kramer, and others: https://www.fsg.org/resource/water_of_systems_change/
Collective Change Lab: https://collectivechangelab.org/

Connect with John:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-kania-1a294020/
Work with Dart:
Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.