The Pragmatic Engineer

Supported by Our PartnerDX⁠ → DX is an engineering intelligence platform designed by leading researchers—In today’s exciting episode of The Pragmatic Engineer, I am joined by two members of the Notion mobile apps team, Austin Louden and Karn Saheb. Austin and Karn joined Notion in 2019 when Notion was revamping its mobile apps. Notion is a versatile productivity and collaboration platform that combines note-taking, task management, and knowledge organization into a single workspace. It is available as a web app, as well as iOS and Android apps for mobile use.In our conversation today, we take a deep dive into how the Notion mobile team operates and discuss the following: • What the engineering culture is like at Notion • Why the mobile team focuses so much on app performance• The incremental shift from Cordova to Native • Notion’s tech stack and frameworks they rely on • How the mobile team maintains consistency across iOS and Android• Unique features of the development process, including a public beta, using modules, and practices around feature flags• … and much more!—Timestamps(00:00) Intro(02:03) The RFC process at Notion (06:00) How Notion uses internal channels to share RFCs(07:57) Some of the unique ways the mobile team works(11:07) Why they don’t do sprint planning at Notion—and what they do instead(12:57) An overview of the size of Notion and teams at Notion(13:15) The beginning of mobile at Notion(14:40) A simple explanation of Cordova(15:40) Why Notion decided to revamp mobile in 2019 and shift to Native(18:30) How the mobile team evaluated performance as they made the shift to Native(22:00) Scaling mobile and iterations of moving to Native (26:04) Why the home tab project was so complex(30:59) Why the mobile team saved the editor for last and other future problems(34:35) How mobile works with other teams (36:50) How iOS and Android teams work together (38:28) The tech stack at Notion(39:30) How frameworks are used(41:57) Pros and cons of different frameworks and why Swift was the right choice(45:16) How code reviews work at Notion(48:23) Notion’s mobile team’s testing philosophy(50:18) How the mobile team keeps compile time so fast(52:36) Modules in the iOS app(54:50) Modules in the Android app(56:44) Behind the scenes of an app release and the public beta(1:00:34) Practices around feature flags(1:03:00) The four dev environments at Notion(1:04:48) How development apps work (1:07:40) How and why you can work offline in Notion mobile (1:10:24) Austin and Karn’s thoughts on the future of mobile engineering (1:12:47) Advice for junior engineers(1:16:29) Rapid fire round—The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode:—Where to find Austin Louden:• GitHub: https://github.com/austinlouden• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/austinlouden• Website: https://austinlouden.com/Where to find Karn Saheb:• GitHub: https://github.com/Karn• LinkedIn: https://github.com/Karn• Website: https://karn.ioWhere to find Gergely:• Newsletter: https://www.pragmaticengineer.com/• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/mrgergelyorosz• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gergelyorosz/• X: https://x.com/GergelyOrosz—References and Transcripts:See the transcript and other references from the episode at https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/podcast—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected]. Get full access to The Pragmatic Engineer at newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/subscribe

Brought to you by:• WorkOS — The modern identity platform for B2B SaaS.• Sevalla — Deploy anything from preview environments to Docker images.• Chronosphere — The observability platform built for control.—Welcome to The Pragmatic Engineer! Today, I’m thrilled to be joined by Grady Booch, a true legend in software development. Grady is the Chief Scientist for Software Engineering at IBM, where he leads groundbreaking research in embodied cognition.He’s the mind behind several object-oriented design concepts, a co-author of the Unified Modeling Language, and a founding member of the Agile Alliance and the Hillside Group.Grady has authored six books, hundreds of articles, and holds prestigious titles as an IBM, ACM, and IEEE Fellow, as well as a recipient of the Lovelace Medal (an award for those with outstanding contributions to the advancement of computing). In this episode, we discuss:• What it means to be an IBM Fellow• The evolution of the field of software development• How UML was created, what its goals were, and why Grady disagrees with the direction of later versions of UML• Pivotal moments in software development history• How the software architect role changed over the last 50 years• Why Grady declined to be the Chief Architect of Microsoft – saying no to Bill Gates!• Grady’s take on large language models (LLMs)• Advice to less experienced software engineers• … and much more!—Timestamps(00:00) Intro(01:56) What it means to be a Fellow at IBM(03:27) Grady’s work with legacy systems(09:25) Some examples of domains Grady has contributed to(11:27) The evolution of the field of software development(16:23) An overview of the Booch method(20:00) Software development prior to the Booch method(22:40) Forming Rational Machines with Paul and Mike(25:35) Grady’s work with Bjarne Stroustrup(26:41) ROSE and working with the commercial sector(30:19) How Grady built UML with Ibar Jacobson and James Rumbaugh(36:08) An explanation of UML and why it was a mistake to turn it into a programming language(40:25) The IBM acquisition and why Grady declined Bill Gates’s job offer (43:38) Why UML is no longer used in industry (52:04) Grady’s thoughts on formal methods(53:33) How the software architect role changed over time(1:01:46) Disruptive changes and major leaps in software development(1:07:26) Grady’s early work in AI(1:12:47) Grady’s work with Johnson Space Center(1:16:41) Grady’s thoughts on LLMs (1:19:47) Why Grady thinks we are a long way off from sentient AI (1:25:18) Grady’s advice to less experienced software engineers(1:27:20) What’s next for Grady(1:29:39) Rapid fire round—The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode:• The Past and Future of Modern Backend Practices https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/the-past-and-future-of-backend-practices • What Changed in 50 Years of Computing https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/what-changed-in-50-years-of-computing • AI Tooling for Software Engineers: Reality Check https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/ai-tooling-2024—Where to find Grady Booch:• X: https://x.com/grady_booch• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gradybooch• Website: https://computingthehumanexperience.comWhere to find Gergely:• Newsletter: https://www.pragmaticengineer.com/• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/mrgergelyorosz• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gergelyorosz/• X: https://x.com/GergelyOrosz—References and Transcripts:See the transcript and other references from the episode at https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/podcast—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected]. Get full access to The Pragmatic Engineer at newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/subscribe

Brought to you by:• Launch Darkly — a platform for high-velocity engineering teams to release, monitor, and optimize great software. • Sevalla — Deploy anything from preview environments to Docker images.• WorkOS — The modern identity platform for B2B SaaS.—On today’s episode of The Pragmatic Engineer, I’m joined by fellow Uber alum, Sabin Roman, now the first Engineering Manager at Linear. Linear, known for its powerful project and issue-tracking system, streamlines workflows throughout the product development process.In our conversation today, Sabin and I compare building projects at Linear versus our experiences at Uber. He shares insights into Linear’s unique approaches, including:• How Linear handles internal communications• The “goalie” program to address customer concerns and Linear’s zero bug policy• How Linear keeps teams connected despite working entirely remotely• An in-depth, step-by-step walkthrough of a project at Linear• Linear’s focus on quality and creativity over fash shipping • Titles at Linear, Sabin’s learnings from Uber, and much more!Timestamps(00:00) Intro(01:41) Sabin’s background(02:45) Why Linear rarely uses e-mail internally(07:32) An overview of Linear's company profile(08:03) Linear’s tech stack(08:20) How Linear operated without product people(09:40) How Linear stays close to customers(11:27) The shortcomings of Support Engineers at Uber and why Linear’s “goalies” work better(16:35) Focusing on bugs vs. new features(18:55) Linear’s hiring process(21:57) An overview of a typical call with a hiring manager at Linear(24:13) The pros and cons of Linear’s remote work culture(29:30) The challenge of managing teams remotely(31:44) A step-by-step walkthrough of how Sabin built a project at Linear (45:47) Why Linear’s unique working process works (49:57) The Helix project at Uber and differences in operations working at a large company(57:47) How senior engineers operate at Linear vs. at a large company(1:01:30) Why Linear has no levels for engineers (1:07:13) Less experienced engineers at Linear(1:08:56) Sabin’s big learnings from Uber(1:09:47) Rapid fire round—The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode:• The story of Linear, as told by its CTO• An update on Linear, after their $35M fundraise• Software engineers leading projects• Netflix’s historic introduction of levels for software engineers—Where to find Sabin Roman:• X: https://x.com/sabin_roman• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sabinroman/Where to find Gergely:• Newsletter: https://www.pragmaticengineer.com/• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/mrgergelyorosz• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gergelyorosz/• X: https://x.com/GergelyOrosz—References and Transcripts:See the transcript and other references from the episode at https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/podcast—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected]. Get full access to The Pragmatic Engineer at newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/subscribe

Brought to you by:• WorkOS — The modern identity platform for B2B SaaS.• Sonar —  Trust your developers – verify your AI-generated code.—In today’s episode of The Pragmatic Engineer, I’m joined by Irina Stanescu, a seasoned engineer with over 14 years in software engineering and engineering leadership roles at tech companies like Google and Uber. Now an engineering leadership coach, Irina helps tech professionals build impactful careers, teaches a course on influence, and shares insights through her newsletter, The Caring Techie. In our conversation today, Irina shares her journey of rising through the ranks at Google and Uber. We dive into the following topics: • An inside look at Google’s unique working processes• How to build credibility as a new engineer• Tactical tips for getting promoted • The importance of having a career plan and guidance in designing one• Having influence vs. influencing—and how to become more influential • Essential leadership skills to develop• And so much more—In this episode, we cover:(01:34) Irina’s time at Google(03:10) An overview of ‘design docs’ at Google(08:27) The readiness review at Google(10:40) Why Irina uses spreadsheets(11:44) Irina’s favorite tools and how she uses them(13:46) How Google certifies readability(15:40) Google’s meme generator (17:36) Advice for engineers thinking about working for an organization like Google(20:14) How promotions work at Google(23:15) How Irina worked towards getting promoted (27:50) How Irina got her first mentor (30:44) Organizational shifts at Uber while Irina and Gergely were there(35:50) Why you should prioritize growth over promotion(36:50) What a career plan is and how to build one(40:40) Irina’s current role coaching engineers (42:23) A simple explanation of influence and influencing (51:54) Why saying no is necessary at times(54:30) The importance of building leadership skills—The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode:• Preparing for promotions ahead of time: https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/preparing-for-promotions • Engineering career paths at Big Tech and scaleups: https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/engineering-career-paths • Getting an Engineering Executive Job: https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/getting-an-engineering-executive • The Seniority Rollercoaster: https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/the-seniority-rollercoaster—Where to find Irina Stanescu:• X: https://x.com/thecaringtechie• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/irinastanescu/• Website: https://www.thecaringtechie.com/• Maven course: Impact through Influence in Engineering Teams: https://maven.com/irina-stanescu/influence-sweWhere to find Gergely:• Newsletter: https://www.pragmaticengineer.com/• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/mrgergelyorosz• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gergelyorosz/• X: https://x.com/GergelyOrosz—References and Transcripts:See the transcript and other references from the episode at https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/podcast—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected]. Get full access to The Pragmatic Engineer at newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/subscribe